Regular Military vs. Shadowrunners Options

[Doc Chase]

Mhm. The Bolivian Army Ending.

[D2F]

My point was it's absurd to have to fight 30 goons who are all just lined up shooting at you. If I ever found a member of my group in that situation, I would try to find a humane way to spare them. As such, I'd just crib from your average action movie, and have some dude running haplessly through a cloud of bullets as they bust up the walls, windows, ground, etc. He'd probably have to soak one or two but he's not mercilessly whittled down to nothing.

Sorry, I caught your reply too late. My apologies.
What is "absurd" in m opinion is for him to get into that position in the first place. If a player is stupid enough to let his character piss off the Spikes, or the 162s, or the Crimson Crush badly enough for them to want to make an excemple out of him, he did not do so by accident. He had to do it on purpose. And it seems said player opted not to run. Bad choice. And as wel all know, Bad choices spell D-E-A-D.

I would not let him see the light of the day, if he was one of my player's characters.

[LivingOxymoron]

Overly long post from a former grunt below:

I was a grunt (though granted, it was Marine Corps and we regularly out-ran, out-shot, and generally out-did "Rangers." - though "Rangers have undoubtedly better PR.)

Short version:
I expect the grunts unit would win except against very smart shadowrunners, who probably would be smart enough not to take on a platoon of regular infantry to begin with. The smarter shadowrunners would probably use tactics much like we are seeing Iraq: IEDs, use of the civilian population, and very, very rarely guerilla skirmishes and even then, mostly against their logistical support units.

EDIT: added bullets for readability

First off, Semper Fi, brother. I was in the Corps 10 years ago myself, though I was a spook rather than a grunt.

Second, lots of good info here. The reason I'm using a "squad" or even a "fire team" size, is that the runners are going into the ACHE, which is patrolled by the UCAS Army on some floors and the 'Plex Guard on others. Because its a small, enclosed space, a whole Platoon will be covering a sector of a floor, but a Squad (or even 2 Fireteams, Reinforced) would be the number of grunts walking around.

[Doc Chase]

First off, Semper Fi, brother. I was in the Corps 10 years ago myself, though I was a spook rather than a grunt.

Second, lots of good info here. The reason I'm using a "squad" or even a "fire team" size, is that the runners are going into the ACHE, which is patrolled by the UCAS Army on some floors and the 'Plex Guard on others. Because its a small, enclosed space, a whole Platoon will be covering a sector of a floor, but a Squad (or even 2 Fireteams, Reinforced) would be the number of grunts walking around.

Oooh. Paranoid grunts.

[Warlordtheft]

Well it wouldn't even take 30. Five gangers pinned down the PC's in my most recent game (400 BP + lots of karma) in a private room atthe Big Rhino. It wasn't even close. The gangers had heavy pistols with smartlinks (total of 8 dice rolled with skills+attribute). It was not pretty..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif)

[LivingOxymoron]

I would give them Armored jackets instead of armored vests and rating 5 commlinks. They are kmilitary and to me an "Armored Vest" in shadowrun is something to wear under regular clothing (which the rules expressively permit), so I'd hardly consider it a Flak Vest. Also, I would have every Soldier carry a Sidearm (Colt Government L36 or an FN 5-7C) with two extra clips. Other than that, I would agree with your assessment.

Generally speaking, Grunts don't carry sidearms into the field. No need to carry 2 different types of ammo (or even if they are the same, 2 different types of clips/mags). No need to carry a second weapon either. If you are in an open field environment, the lack of range is a severely limiting factor. In an urban setting, most carbines or SMGs are small enough to allow good mobility and control, while still using more effective rifle rounds.

[Ryu]

Several countries also enforce service requirements for all their citizens, such as the Sioux. Most of them will be unaugmented, but the ones who are lifers are more liable to get the serious body mods.

Outfitting them with an assault rifle and a set of light/medium military armor isn't going to break any national bank.

I´m much for making military armor common, and more available on the streets. There is something satisfying in power armor fights.

The camo suit is enough for units you don´t really expect to see battle anytime soon, like inland hometown garrisons.



And there is a Special Forces Trooper on pg. 88 of Cybertechnology.

[LivingOxymoron]

I find your fireteam awfully inadequate for the 6th world especially for armor. They aren't even on par with standard Cops units, that laughable.

snip...

Also your fireteam lack AT capability (at least several discardable rocket launcher) and a dedicated Sniper. About Drone support, the arsenal mention an Ammo/Gear carrier that is supposed to go with the soldiers on the field.

Remember that a Fireteam is 4 or 5 people. AT support is handled by an entirely separate platoon altogether, who will attach themselves to a Grunt squad if they are expected to go up against armor.

As for Snipers, again, that's an entirely separate unit that handles those duties, and farms their people out as needed. Usually, thought, they operate in support of higher HQs mission, rather than the Squads or even the Platoon. There are troops known as "Designated Marksmen", who generally use scoped semi-auto rifles at medium ranges, where rapid firepower at range is more important than single shots from way far out.

[Doc Chase]

Remember that a Fireteam is 4 or 5 people. AT support is handled by an entirely separate platoon altogether, who will attach themselves to a Grunt squad if they are expected to go up against armor.

Heh. A couple A1C's in a trailer in the middle of the desert, waiting for your radio chatter.

As for Snipers, again, that's an entirely separate unit that handles those duties, and farms their people out as needed. Usually, thought, they operate in support of higher HQs mission, rather than the Squads or even the Platoon. There are troops known as "Designated Marksmen", who generally use scoped semi-auto rifles at medium ranges, where rapid firepower at range is more important than single shots from way far out.

If you're doing this in the ACHE though, I'm thinking you're not going to need a DM since it's all enclosed combat. Unless you're in one of the atriums...

[stevebugge]

Way Tangent but what's the bets that in 2070 Mages get O-1 or better pay just for being a mage?

[Doc Chase]

Way Tangent but what's the bets that in 2070 Mages get O-1 or better pay just for being a mage?

Hmmm. I'd agree with that, figuring that mages would have to go through OCS to get the proper astral training.

[LivingOxymoron]

Isn't that when they send the E-1's to the Commisary for the Canned Steam to get the boiler going again?

Oh and while you're there get some headlight fluid for the Jeep and a stack of grid squares. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

One of my Staff Sergeants sent a PFC on a chase for a BA-1000 November form that took him half a day.

[Stahlseele]

Over here, the newbies are sent to get the key to the assembly area.

[D2F]

Generally speaking, Grunts don't carry sidearms into the field. No need to carry 2 different types of ammo (or even if they are the same, 2 different types of clips/mags). No need to carry a second weapon either. If you are in an open field environment, the lack of range is a severely limiting factor. In an urban setting, most carbines or SMGs are small enough to allow good mobility and control, while still using more effective rifle rounds.

That makes sense.

[augmentin]

First off, Semper Fi, brother. I was in the Corps 10 years ago myself, though I was a spook rather than a grunt.

Second, lots of good info here. The reason I'm using a "squad" or even a "fire team" size, is that the runners are going into the ACHE, which is patrolled by the UCAS Army on some floors and the 'Plex Guard on others. Because its a small, enclosed space, a whole Platoon will be covering a sector of a floor, but a Squad (or even 2 Fireteams, Reinforced) would be the number of grunts walking around.

1/3 Lava Dogs myself.

I'm not familiar with how ACHE fits into the setting, but in RL I'd envision it being handled by MSF. That is federal police on the inside, Marine Security Forces platoons patrolling the perimeter. Thing is, except for embassies, Marines are real well suited for guarding building interiors. As a general rule, "Marines take ground. Soldiers hold ground."

[LivingOxymoron]

I´m much for making military armor common, and more available on the streets. There is something satisfying in power armor fights.

The camo suit is enough for units you don´t really expect to see battle anytime soon, like inland hometown garrisons.


And there is a Special Forces Trooper on pg. 88 of Cybertechnology.

Remember that the "Military Grade Armor" must be fitted to the wearer. I don't think every grunt would get this stuff. More than likely, they'll get a Camo Suit, or Full Body Armor. There is also the downside to wearing such highly rated armor, so I think that the Military Grade stuff would only be for specialized units.

[LivingOxymoron]

1/3 Lava Dogs myself.

I'm not familiar with how ACHE fits into the setting, but in RL I'd envision it being handled by MSF. That is federal police on the inside, Marine Security Forces platoons patrolling the perimeter. Thing is, except for embassies, Marines are real well suited for guarding building interiors. As a general rule, "Marines take ground. Soldiers hold ground."

In my scenario, there are significant portions of the ACHE (Archology Community Housing Enclave) that are still under the jurisdiction of the UCAS Army, because despite the propaganda, they STILL haven't been completely pacified and/or some of the floors have things that the Federal Government doesn't want to let fall into anyone elses' hands. There's also a ton of other nasty stuff too, like bugs, shedim, and Tamanous that keeps the Army there.

Also, as much as it pained me to do so, I made the decision that with the split of the CAS, and the joining with Canada (not to mention the loss of both MCRDs), factions of the Army and Air Force finally were able to succeed in getting rid of the USMC for good. The tradition is being kept alive by the CAS (with many Marines informally calling themselves the "USMC" in things like cadence), who are looking forward to celebrating the Corps' 300th birthday soon.

[Tzeentch]

-- Former Marine here. 0511 Enlisted MAGTF Planner though, not a grunt, so keep in mind my perception is heavily influenced by logistics considerations. I post ome musings on this subject a long time ago that I've collected on my website. Note that most of those were written several years ago while I was active duty, and before I partipated in OEF/OIF and became very disillusioned with the current technofetish trend (e.g. Tom Clancy type bullshit).

What are the comparative strength levels of a Regular Military squad vs. a Shadowrunner team? Should one necessarily be able to dominate the other the majority of the time in an even match? How would a typical infantry squad (not a SpecOps squad like Ghosts, Delta, or Wildcats) be outfitted, specifically as regards armor? What is the norm? Armor Jacket/Camo Suit? Security Armor? Light Military Grade Armor?

-- First off, you need to start associating "Shadowrunners" with "special ops" because in all but the most gritty street level game they really are a special elite in stats, skills, equipment availability, and psychological prepation to commit violence. A shadowrunner group with mage and hacker support will RIP APART any plausible conventional military unit: jamming their comms, jacking their own drones, making headshots at a thousand paces, mind controlling their officers, etc.

-- Second, I can recommend that you skim through the Small Wars Journal site and read their forums. They have some exceptional resources on there that can be adapted. For example, I got a lot of use from the thread "Weight of Combat Gear is Taking Toll"

Armor
-- There is not a "no casualities at any price" attitude that I can discern in Shadowrun, so right off the bat you need to be very careful about taking modern US military trends and applying it to Shadowrun. It is extremely unlikely that miltiary grade armor (Arsenal, p. 50) is common at all -- the requirement that it be custom tailored pretty much kills it except in special ops units (and even there it's a problem).

-- Something akin to SWAT Armor (Arsenal, p. 49) strikes me as far more likely an analog to the current protective systems.

Communications
-- The ECM/ECCM environment in Shadowrun is SERIOUS BAD NEWS for modern conceptions of C4I. Troops probably have high-rated comm systems that are reasonably SOTA (in fact, that's probably the only thing they use that is!) but Tom Clancy micromanagement is a recipe for disaster with wireless hackers around. I suspect a military commlink will be something like an Renraku Airware (Signal is more important than Response, good price point) with a custom OS that strongly emphasizes Firewall Rating). Probably has skinlink and subvocal mic. All together this is a pretty inexpensive bit of kit, and is largely off-the-shelf. A simrig is asking for trouble in most cases.

Electronics
-- Goggles with Flare Compensation, Image Link, Low-Light Vision, and Smartlnk. Drop the Smartlink for militia armies (that 500 nuyen adds up FAST in bulk purchases).
-- Earbuds with Select Sound Filter

Weapon System
-- Money to blow: XM30 type system.
-- More reasonable: AK-97 or FN-HAR (neither smartlinked). The M22A3 (Arsenal, p. 26) also isn't half bad.
-- Probable: As most operations are in urban areas I suspect that the carbine will continue to be popular, so more stuff like the Praetor (Arsenal, pp. 24-25).

Other Crap
-- Gas Mask is useful to have on you due to the effectiveness of various SR chemtech. But it's actually fairly expensive.
-- Slap Patches get much love.

Understanding that the T/O doesn't allow for a mage to back-up every squad, what does the typical squad use to protect themselves against a single mage with an overcasted powerbolt from wiping them out, especially in a vehicle?

-- Good communication to identify high-priority targets and hit them hard and fast before you get geeked. If they can, avoid direct contact and use supporting fires (drones, artillery, mortars, etc). Think of a mage like a small, fairly squishy tank. Something not encountered all the time, but extremely dangerous when it's around and requiring a lot of training and forethought to tackle.

[Doc Chase]

Hasn't fluff had the M22A3 the main rifle of the UCAS since the Street Sam Catalog?

[LivingOxymoron]

Way Tangent but what's the bets that in 2070 Mages get O-1 or better pay just for being a mage?

I've actually always imagined it similar to the Army's Aviation program. Those with demonstrable magical ability have a warrant officer program that they can apply for right out of high school. There would be a "Magic Pay" bonus similar to the current foreign language bonus, which pays more for certain specializations and/or grades of initiation. Warrant Officers form the bulk of the Thaum Corps who are providing magical support on the field, running Astral Overwatch, or summoning support spirits. Mages who possess a BA or BS in Thaumaturgy can go the Officer route and be put into leadership positions, over both magical and non-magical personnel alike. Adepts with no college degree can enlist and go through basic training, then undergo a Warrant Officer program for Magical Support Staff in whatever field they choose (I once made a retired Warrant Officer who was an adept and had powers focused on Intelligence, Tactical, and Logistical analysis).

[Tzeentch]

Hasn't fluff had the M22A3 the main rifle of the UCAS since the Street Sam Catalog?

-- It's not mentioned as such in Arsenal. Wouldn't really surprise me though, it's a good weapon and Shadowrun gun technology pretty much hasn't changed since First Edition anyways.

[LivingOxymoron]

-- Former Marine here. 0511 Enlisted MAGTF Planner though, not a grunt, so keep in mind my perception is heavily influenced by logistics considerations. I post ome musings on this subject a long time ago that I've collected on my website. Note that most of those were written several years ago while I was active duty, and before I partipated in OEF/OIF and became very disillusioned with the current technofetish trend (e.g. Tom Clancy type bullshit).

Thanks for the input. I think I've said it to you before here, but, Semper Fi brother. I was an 0231 who got out just prior to OIF.

I'm actually thinking of putting together a T/O from the ground up (starting with fire team and working upward) for equipment and roles, working with a friend of mine who's an 0351 and just got out... and a gamer.

You want in?

[stevebugge]

Another thing to keep in mind when equipping your military units in game is that the purchase of specific gear is often a Political Consideration. Just because one piece of gear is better than another doesn't mean the regulars will have it.

Say your regular army happens to be the Tsimshan Nation (gone by 2072, but they make a good example) who is mortgaged up to their eyeballs to Mitsuhama, do you think they will be sporting Renraku Comms? Heck No, nor are they likely to be carrying Ares Alphas. They are going to have a lot of gear from their patron corp. Same goes for Aztechnology / Aztlan. UCAS gets trickier as the procurement is done by the Pentagon with a lot of micromanaging by Congressmen who want to get money back to their districts to get re-elected. (note to GM's Corps & Politicos working together to sabotage ecahother's earmakrs make great runs)

[Tzeentch]

-- Sure, but note that I'm more worried about stuff like "would this fit on a 463L pallet" (or the future Shadowrun equivalent) and "how many batteries per day would this require." (oh god the horror stories about the BA5590 batteries during OIF!) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[stevebugge]

-- Sure, but note that I'm more worried about stuff like "would this fit on a 463L pallet" (or the future Shadowrun equivalent) and "how many batteries per day would this require." (oh god the horror stories about the BA5590 batteries during OIF!) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

These sorts of requirements often go in to procurement contracts to assure certain winners, it's quite likely that Ares supplies the UCAS with Pallets, the Trucks they load to, and the crates of Rifle ammo that go on them. An you better believe that those pallets don't fit Steyr Ammo crates neatly