Martial Arts Spellcaster? Options

[Socinus]

Ive been toying with the idea of a martial arts practitioner who uses the strikes of unarmed combat to deliver Touch ranged spells.

AFAIK, you cant cast a spell and do an unarmed attack at the same time but I'm not real familiar with martial arts in Shadowrun. Is there a way to make this work that I'm missing?

[Abschalten]

Ive been toying with the idea of a martial arts practitioner who uses the strikes of unarmed combat to deliver Touch ranged spells.

AFAIK, you cant cast a spell and do an unarmed attack at the same time but I'm not real familiar with martial arts in Shadowrun. Is there a way to make this work that I'm missing?

It's workable. I would recommend going Mystic Adept for it. You could take Improved Ability: Unarmed to help you deliver the touch-based spells. Say, maybe 1 Magic point into that so you can get +2 Unarmed. Then you could max out Magic and still have 5 Magic to help you get off the spells. Then you can go 5 in Spellcasting and 5 in Unarmed in chargen to have good pools for succeeding at both parts of that test.

You won't have to rice out your drain stats so much since the drain values on touch-based spells are SUPER DUPER LOW.

As a MystAd you have plenty of growth in either your adept or magic side. And you can dabble or specialize as you see fit. The best of both worlds for the concept if you ask me.

Also you can try to snag a sustaining focus and take the Improved Reflexes spell (I think that's what it's called) so you can beef up your initiative passes. That'll help you kick more ass.

Edit: And I totally missed part of your question. As for touch-based spells, the Unarmed+Agility part where you try to touch them is considered to be part of the spellcasting attempt, part of the same Complex Action. So if you attempt to touch a guy and you make the roll, then you can make the spellcasting test to do the damage.

If you want martial arts to help you out, pick arts that give you stuff like +1 die to Unarmed Attacks. The +1 DV-type bonuses won't help you much.

[Socinus]

Could you cast a spell as part of an unarmed attack that causes damage or do those have to be separate actions?

[IKerensky]

Separate action, you try to "Touch" or you try to Hit. Cant do both. Look at the shock gloves rules.

[Emy]

I'm pretty sure you can deliver a spell with a headbutt or kick. You get an unarmed attack as part of the spellcasting complex action, and while only trying to touch someone (no damage) gives you a +2 dice pool modifier to the attack, there's no reason you can't give your spells a little more... force. The non-magical kind.

[Abschalten]

You can't do damage with an unarmed attack AND do damage with a spell. You either hit to damage with your fists or you try to touch with the spell.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I believe in previous editions you were explicitly allowed to hit and deliver the spell at the same time. The benefit of just touching was it reduced the TN to hit. In SR4 touch attacks give you +2 dice(since its a static TN) and you can not do both at the same time. If I were to do this I'd likely specialize in touch attacks with my unarmed combat skill for an additional 2 dice. They never really explain though how touch range indirect attacks work so good luck.

Basically with a direct spell it is easy if you successfully touch, you cast the spell like normal. Indirect, well normally they get to try and dodge the attack but now they are dodging the touch, do they also get to dodge the spell discharge like they normally could if it were ranged. This does not come up with direct spells since there is no dodge part if its ranged. And since damage is increased on the magic part of the spell being cast and not the touch delivery it leaves an area of uncertainty.

Basically normally I fast clout I roll spell casting+magic and I get 4 hits, they try to dodge and get 2 hits so I have 2 net hits increasing my force 7 spell to 9DV which they then resist.

The touch range clout, punch I think. I roll unarmed+agility+2dice for touch spell+2dice for specialty get 5 hits they get 3 hits on there reaction+unarmed so 2 net hits. All I needed was 1 net hit the rest of the hits do nothing for me. Now I cast using spell casting+magic and get the same 4 hits as the previous example. Difference is if they are not dodging it now I have 4 net hits and hit for 11DV. If they are dodging it I do the same damage as the previous example, but this is just a crap ton of rolling and while thematically cool is slowing down the game too much.

[Mäx]

The touch range clout, punch I think. I roll unarmed+agility+2dice for touch spell+2dice for specialty get 5 hits they get 3 hits on there reaction+unarmed so 2 net hits. All I needed was 1 net hit the rest of the hits do nothing for me.

Actually you don't even need that 1 net hit, tie with the opponent is enought.

[Wasabi]

Dont forget that touch spells get a 2 extra dice to land the blow since you only need to touch the target. Tai Chi adds to Force of Will attacks which with a high Willpower can be a handy way to hit an all-astral target without buying levels in Astral Combat.

[czarcasm]

There are some sample builds for this kind of concept in this thread: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...8&hl=touchy

In that thread, Falconer pointed out that touch-attack spellcasters can readily get such high dice pools that they can effectively do multicasting. I think that there's a quality that lets you do melee attacks on multiple opponents in one pass.

[Belvidere]

Personally, I wouldn't go with using martial arts to try and get touch spells to land instead, I'd just use the Elemental Aura spell from Street Magic

[Element] Aura (Environmental)
Type: P • Range: LOS • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 3
This spell creates a rippling aura of elemental energies
around a subject’s body. Each element requires a different
spell (Flame Aura, Electrical Aura, Cold Aura, etc.). This fiery
aura does not affect the subject, but increase the DV of any
melee attacks by the caster’s hits. Attacks are treated as Cold,
Electricity, Fire, or some other elemental damage (see p. 155,
SR4, and pp. 164–165 of this book), as appropriate to the
aura, and are resisted with half Impact armor.
Any successful physical melee attack against the subject
also means that the attacker must resist similar damage from
the aura. The aura’s Damage Value equals the spell’s Force.

Plus start throwing around Elemental Walls and using Shape Element, you could get some pretty cool fighting scenarios going on. Imagine Avatar:The Last Airbender (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Shinobi Killfist]

i tried to build an element aura type it was hard due to the plethora of stat requirements. You need decent body since you are in the thick of things, good agility to hit, good strength so the base damage does not suck, decent to good reaction so you can block a punch with something other than your chin, and then you need your spellcasting stats. It might be doable as an orc or dwarf, maybe troll but it was damn hard as a human.

[Nifft]

Personally, I wouldn't go with using martial arts to try and get touch spells to land instead, I'd just use the Elemental Aura spell from Street Magic

[Element] Aura (Environmental)
Type: P • Range: LOS • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 3
This spell creates a rippling aura of elemental energies
around a subject’s body. Each element requires a different
spell (Flame Aura, Electrical Aura, Cold Aura, etc.). This fiery
aura does not affect the subject, but increase the DV of any
melee attacks by the caster’s hits. Attacks are treated as Cold,
Electricity, Fire, or some other elemental damage (see p. 155,
SR4, and pp. 164–165 of this book), as appropriate to the
aura, and are resisted with half Impact armor.
Any successful physical melee attack against the subject
also means that the attacker must resist similar damage from
the aura. The aura’s Damage Value equals the spell’s Force.

Yeah, this. You can go 1-2 Magic for casting, pick up a Sustaining Focus 3, and take a Mentor Spirit who boosts your Manipulation spells (+ specialize in Manipulation once you get 2 karma). With the right Mentor Spirit you can even benefit from Summoning nice force 3-4 helpers at 1 Magic.

Pick up one ranged combat spell (e.g. Stunbolt or Manabolt) and a few utility Manipulation spells that you won't need to cast in combat (e.g. Fashion, Alter Memory, Influence, Sterilize, Shapechange).

[Nifft]

i tried to build an element aura type it was hard due to the plethora of stat requirements. You need decent body since you are in the thick of things, good agility to hit, good strength so the base damage does not suck, decent to good reaction so you can block a punch with something other than your chin, and then you need your spellcasting stats. It might be doable as an orc or dwarf, maybe troll but it was damn hard as a human.

Yeah, Ork is good. Don't put a lot in Strength. It's very cost-effective to pick up Critical Strike 5 for 1.25 PP (plus Improved Reflexes 2 for 2.5 PP = 3.75 PP, that's .25 PP left over for something ultra-sexy like Sustenance).

[sn0mm1s]

i tried to build an element aura type it was hard due to the plethora of stat requirements. You need decent body since you are in the thick of things, good agility to hit, good strength so the base damage does not suck, decent to good reaction so you can block a punch with something other than your chin, and then you need your spellcasting stats. It might be doable as an orc or dwarf, maybe troll but it was damn hard as a human.

Actually, you don't need good STR if you are a mystic adept. You don't need any good physical stats if you can cast Shapeshift (you just lose armor).

Mystic Adept
STR 1
Magic 6 (5 towards adept powers, 1 point towards spellcasting)

3 Levels of Martial arts that give damage value as a bonus.


*IF* you are using the latest FAQ you are limited to Force 2 spells and maximum of 5 levels of an adept power. If not, then bump Critical Strike to 6 and you *could* have up to +6DV from Elemental Aura as well. The breakdown below is using the FAQ.

If you overcast elemental aura you can get 2 hits.
Adept powers: Improved Reflexes 2 (2.5 pts), Heightened Concentration (1 pt), Critical Strike 5 (1.25 pts), with a left over .25 (maybe for Penetrating Strike)

Your minimum damage on a strike if you have 1 STR is:
1 (for 1 STR)
2 (for elemental aura)
5 (for Critical Strike)
3 (for Martial Arts)
1 (for the 1 net hit)

12 DV for 1 net hit is pretty good. Not to mention that the elemental effect *halves* armor and affects spirits (so you don't need Killing Hands) and generally has a secondary effect - I like Sound, Electricity, and Acid.

With Heightened Concentration you can also add in +4 DV and ignore the -4 penalty for a Called Shot - which puts you at 16 DV on a 1 net hit punch, that halves armor + elemental effect.

[Laodicea]

It's a good build for getting some good unarmed damage. It would probably end up fairly lacking in the tanking department, which is important if you're going to be charging gun-users and in the thick of the fight the whole time. Its also going to be low on dicepool for unarmed attacks. To fix this, you might want to drop most of the critical strike and take combat sense instead.

Nothing that I have said above is valid if you 1. use shapeshift at high force or 2. use a possession spirit on yourself.

[sn0mm1s]

It's a good build for getting some good unarmed damage. It would probably end up fairly lacking in the tanking department, which is important if you're going to be charging gun-users and in the thick of the fight the whole time. Its also going to be low on dicepool for unarmed attacks. To fix this, you might want to drop most of the critical strike and take combat sense instead.

Nothing that I have said above is valid if you 1. use shapeshift at high force or 2. use a possession spirit on yourself.

The dicepool for unarmed attacks is going to be at least 13 if you are an ork or human. Also, if one wanted to be more of a tank you can cheese the encumbrance rules with Heightened Concentration and wear 12 armor above your max (normally giving a -6 penalty which can now be ignored). Combat Sense is a great power but generally not worth the points at character creation.

[Nifft]

*IF* you are using the latest FAQ you are limited to Force 2 spells and maximum of 5 levels of an adept power.

Like I said in the other thread... IF the FAQ is supposed to change rules (rather than clarifying them), then maybe... but that was a FAQ to a rule that existed in 4e, so there's a good chance it just got left in place when the 4e20a stuff got added.

That's two big "if"s: whether the FAQ is supposed to change rules, and whether that particular FAQ item has anything to do with "the latest".

(My personal advice is to ignore the FAQ until they get the 4e/4a stuff sorted out. Blatant contradiction of current rules isn't a FAQ answer, it's a rules change -- update, errata, whatever you want to call it. It's a change, not a clarification.)

- - -

Anyway. Here's what I came up with for this dude:

[ Spoiler ]

Ork - 20 bp
Mystic Adept - 10 bp

Resources 210,000 ¥ - 43 bp - you'll see why

Body 6
Agil 5
Reac 5
Strg 3
Char 2
Intu 5
Logi 2
Will 5
Edge 1
Magic 5 -> 4 due to Essence loss
== 200 bp

Unarmed Combat 6
Dodge 4
Spellcasting 4
Summoning 4
Perception 4
== 88 bp

Adept Stuff:
Casting & Conjuring -- 2 pp
Critical Strike 4 -- 1 pp
Killing Hands -- 0.5 pp
Combat Sense 1 -- 0.5 pp <-- when you Initiate, you want to buy more of this

Spells:
Manabolt (combat)
Fashion (manipulation)
Influence (manipulation)
Shapechange (manipulation)
[Element] Aura (manipulation) -- fire is thematic, electricity is nice too
== 15 bp

Tradition: Buddhist (Street Magic) = Willpower + Intuition
Combat Air
Detection Guidance
Health Earth
Illusion Fire
Manipulation Water

Mentor Spirit: Fire Bringer
Manipulation Spells +2 dice
Fire Spirits +2 dice
Disadvantage: Illusion Spells -1 die

Gear:
Comlink 3/3, os 3/3, all programs 3, skinlink, trodes, sim module
== 3,650 ¥

Sustaining Focus 3
== 3 bp + 30 k¥

Synaptic Booster 2 (std bioware) <-- this is where all your money went
== 160 k¥

Form-Fitting Body Armor Full-Body (6/2) + Nonconductive 6 = 2,800 ¥
Armored Jacket + concealed holster = 975 ¥
2x Fake SIN (rating 4) = 8,000 ¥
Magical Lodge (rating 4) = 2,000 ¥

Contact Lenses 3 (image link, vision enhancement 3, skinlink) = 525 ¥

Earbuds (skinlink) = 60 ¥

Certified Credstick = 25 ¥

Grapple Gun = 500 ¥

2x Slap Patch (Stim 6) = 300 ¥

15 doses of Betel = 15 ¥ (all the cool kids are chewing it)

2 months of Squatter lifestyle = 1,000 ¥

You've even got 12 bp left unspent, for contacts, skills, four more spells, or a lifestyle upgrade.

- - -

Why the very expensive Synaptic Booster? Because it only costs you 1 magic point, whereas the equivalent Improved Reflexes would cost you 2.5 magic points.

Tricks you can use:

- Spend 10 of your free BP on Biocompatibility (Bioware). Now when you earn your first million ¥, you can spring for Synaptic Boosters 3 (betaware) and still squeak in at only 1 essence lost. Note: this is a long-term plan, you won't have a million ¥ for quite a while.

- You're an Ork. According to some sources, you can Shapechange into a Human. This is a good disguise. Use your Fashion spell to change your armor & clothes to human-sized.

- When you Initiate, take the "+1 pp" option (from the Street Magic errata) twice, and buy 3 more levels of Combat Sense.

- For your 3rd or 4th initiation, take Adept Centering. It's awesome.

- Some people consider Bad Luck + Edge 1 to be cheesy. I think it's still better than Addiction (mild betel), or Incompetent (pilot spacecraft), but hey, this is a Mystic Adept. We need to stretch the rules a bit to make him effective.

- Oh, hey, you can Summon. You should Summon. Spirits are awesome. Fire isn't the cheesiest -- that would be Man -- but they are very useful even at Force 3 or 4, and frankly so are all the others. When you have the Karma to spare, buy some ranks in the Binding skill. Even with your terrible Charisma you can have two Bound spirits on call, and this can save your butt.

- You have a taser in a concealed holster. Why do you have a taser? So you can point it at people when you cast Stunbolt or Manabolt. Never bother pulling the trigger, you'd just be wasting money.

- If you can't use the Buddhist tradition, pump up your Charisma to 4 (by reducing your Intuition) and go Shamanic. Your drain stat will be one worse, but you'll still be fine. Mostly. The nice thing about having a high Charisma is you can Bind more spirits. Consider trading your Perception 4 for Binding 4, and trade your Mentor Spirit too (since you won't have access to Fire spirits as a Shamanic dude). Raven looks good as a replacement: Air spirits are nice, and with Shamanic tradition, you'll have enough dice to resist the disadvantage 50% of the time.

[Fyndhal]

Anyway. Here's what I came up with for this dude:

Couple questions:
Why Killing Hands? Elemental Aura will give you essentially the same effect when it is up. Is it just for those times when you need to be...more subtle than being a flaming ork?
The Synaptic Booster is nice, but it is cheaper to get sustaining focus and the improved reflexes spell. Yes, there are issues with Foci but are those truly worth the magic loss?

[Nifft]

Couple questions:
Why Killing Hands? Elemental Aura will give you essentially the same effect when it is up. Is it just for those times when you need to be...more subtle than being a flaming ork?
The Synaptic Booster is nice, but it is cheaper to get sustaining focus and the improved reflexes spell. Yes, there are issues with Foci but are those truly worth the magic loss?

Re: Killing Hands - Yes (subtlety can be quite a virtue), and to pierce a Spirit's immunity (which your Aura should help do, but it never hurts to have a backup plan if you meet a really high Force horror), and to turn your aura's Electrical damage back into Physical.

Re: Synaptic Booster - IMHO subtlety is very valuable, and going from invisible to OH MY GOD HE'S PUNCHING A DRAGON TO DEATH in one IP (out of three) is better than wasting a whole combat round + one IP casting TWO buff spells. (He needs to cast & sustain Elemental Aura already.)

Maybe I'm being overly cautious, but I don't like to assume a PC can walk around with Improved Reflexes up all the time, and I don't like the idea of starting combat without any kind of IP booster (unless you're a Summoner).

[sn0mm1s]

Re: Killing Hands - Yes (subtlety can be quite a virtue), and to pierce a Spirit's immunity (which your Aura should help do, but it never hurts to have a backup plan if you meet a really high Force horror), and to turn your aura's Electrical damage back into Physical.

Re: Synaptic Booster - IMHO subtlety is very valuable, and going from invisible to OH MY GOD HE'S PUNCHING A DRAGON TO DEATH in one IP (out of three) is better than wasting a whole combat round + one IP casting TWO buff spells. (He needs to cast & sustain Elemental Aura already.)

Maybe I'm being overly cautious, but I don't like to assume a PC can walk around with Improved Reflexes up all the time, and I don't like the idea of starting combat without any kind of IP booster (unless you're a Summoner).

This is why the adept power at level 2 is superior - it is always on.

With a level two sustaining focus you can have +2 DV elemental aura up and you can cast invisibility on yourself and ignore the penalty with Heightened concentration (or switch it around if you want it doesn't really matter). The only thing that is going to see you is a drone or someone astrally perceiving - and the astral perceiver would be able to recognize you as awakened anyway and the drone is likely to see you no matter what you cast the spell at due to object resistance tests.

[Nifft]

This is why the adept power at level 2 is superior - it is always on.

With a level two sustaining focus you can have +2 DV elemental aura up and you can cast invisibility on yourself and ignore the penalty with Heightened concentration (or switch it around if you want it doesn't really matter). The only thing that is going to see you is a drone or someone astrally perceiving - and the astral perceiver would be able to recognize you as awakened anyway and the drone is likely to see you no matter what you cast the spell at due to object resistance tests.

Absolutely. If you can afford the 2.5 pp, the adept power is awesome.

If you can't afford the 2.5 pp, the Synaptic Booster is a fine substitute.

IMHO a force 2 Invisibility is useless. If he's limited by the 4e faq ruling (as opposed to the 4a rules), then he's better off putting 2 points of his magic into casting, so he can hit force 4. Same deal with Spirits: getting to force 3 is a big deal, and force 4 are what you want for combat.

If he's using 4a, then he can hit force 4 without casting 2, so then he's less constrained. (I think this is what he said he is using: 4e/20a, not 4e FAQ.)

[Mäx]

If he's using 4a, then he can hit force 4 without casting 2, so then he's less constrained. (I think this is what he said he is using: 4e/20a, not 4e FAQ.)

I would think that its safe to assumune that the latest errata of the rules is beign used when answering, unless specifig house rules are mentioned(like using FAQ rulings)

[sn0mm1s]

Absolutely. If you can afford the 2.5 pp, the adept power is awesome.

If you can't afford the 2.5 pp, the Synaptic Booster is a fine substitute.

IMHO a force 2 Invisibility is useless. If he's limited by the 4e faq ruling (as opposed to the 4a rules), then he's better off putting 2 points of his magic into casting, so he can hit force 4. Same deal with Spirits: getting to force 3 is a big deal, and force 4 are what you want for combat.

If he's using 4a, then he can hit force 4 without casting 2, so then he's less constrained. (I think this is what he said he is using: 4e/20a, not 4e FAQ.)

I thought Force 2 invisibility would be useless too... but for most builds getting 2+ hits on a willpower roll is less likely than 1 or less. Even so, he isn't using the FAQ.

[Nifft]

I thought Force 2 invisibility would be useless too... but for most builds getting 2+ hits on a willpower roll is less likely than 1 or less. Even so, he isn't using the FAQ.

Depends. If you're being looked at by one guard with a 4 Willpower, he's got a 30% chance of noticing you. If you're being looked at by three guards each with 4 Willpower, there's a 66% chance at least one notices you.

Basically, for all-or-nothing spells, you have to make each individual very unlikely to pass in order to have confidence that NOBODY will. Invisibility is an all-or-nothing -- unlike Mob Mind where you can just have your enslaved minions shoot the few with free will first.

I would think that its safe to assumune that the latest errata of the rules is beign used when answering, unless specifig house rules are mentioned(like using FAQ rulings)

There's been errata for 4e/20a?