Rules Pitfalls, What things should GMs and Players watch out for? Options

[BobChuck]

I'm looking for what bits and pieces of rules are difficult, confusing, or otherwise controversial.

I am NOT looking for a debate on any of these; that's a separate topic. Actually, a whole bunch of separate topics. Basically, I am looking for a list of all the things that can cause lengthy passionate Rules Discussions at the drop of a hat.

I've picked up on a few so far:

Control Thoughts - problematic spell that is sometimes banned by GMs. Control Actions is significantly less broken but can lead to some of the same issues.

Shapechange - when combined with Trolls and high body, can lead to min-maxed characters that taste strongly of cheese.

Cyber/Bioware - exactly what counts an "accessory" (and multiplied) and what is just added on is unclear in the rules (meaning clear enough to lead to a ridiculous conclusion for high-end ware, but vague enough for said absurd conclusion to result in questioning the rule as a whole), so is hotly debated.

Biodrones - Can they be "hacked"? If so, how, and how does one protect them? Can a person be rigged as a biodrone? Not all that controversial (because it is very uncommon), but very complicated and unclear.

That's all I've got so far. Please post any additional ones that you think new players should be aware of. Please post in as neutral a manner as possible, because this thread is by definition going to contain a lot of flame bait. That's the point - identify them quickly so they can be nipped in the bud before they catch fire at the table.

[The Grue Master]

Stick 'n' Shock ammo is often banned or controlled. Not sure if it's controversial or not, just rather powerful. I include Shock Gloves in the same category.

[Belvidere]

Stick 'n' Shock ammo is often banned or controlled. Not sure if it's controversial or not, just rather powerful. I include Shock Gloves in the same category.

The truly painful use of them is in burst fire and full auto weapons. When in pistol they aren't much different than a taser, except a longer range.

[Lanlaorn]

Shapechange - when combined with Trolls and high body, can lead to min-maxed characters that taste strongly of cheese.

I think the FAQ explicitly said that you can choose Human as a "critter", but only human. Elves, Trolls, Orks, and Dwarves would be considered paranormal critters and thus prohibited by the spell's rules.

That said, if you pick Human it's still a really efficient way to get physical stats up compared to the Improved Attribute line. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing but who knows.

[BobChuck]

Aha, thanks for reminding me. I forgot about

Stick N Shock: controversial ammo, for a number of reasons. Technically capable of harming spirits, which is considered ridiculous by some. Also, overpowered in general when used in anything with autofire capability. Most common solution it to define it as "Shotgun only", or more generously, "shotgun and small arms only".

Spirits: powerful in general, significantly better than the "tech" equivalent of drones. Most problematic ability is "Invulnerability to Normal Weapons", which functions as hardened armor at Force x2 against any non-magical attack; elemental attacks half this value (which is why Stick and Shock is effective). There is no single widely accepted solution to this problem; halving the armor in general (to just Force) is perhaps slightly more common than other ideas.

I think the FAQ explicitly said that you can choose Human as a "critter", but only human. Elves, Trolls, Orks, and Dwarves would be considered paranormal critters and thus prohibited by the spell's rules.

That said, if you pick Human it's still a really efficient way to get physical stats up compared to the Improved Attribute line. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing but who knows.

I was referring to a Troll who uses this spell plus his high body to turn into truly absurd creatures. There's a Troll/Dragon shapeshifter of some kind a few pages down, though I don't know precisely how it works. Might have been through the adept version of the power.

[Cabral]

There is no adept version of shapeshift. Perhaps you are thinking of the Drake quality from Runner's Companion?

[Lanlaorn]

That's not the Shapechange spell, or even regular shapeshifting, that's being a Drake. All those metatypes are inherently somewhat overpowered really (IMO), but that's what you're paying the huge BP/Karma costs for.

I don't really have any experience playing with animal forms, nor have given it much thought, but upon cursory inspection losing all your armor, weapons and 'ware is a fairly signficant drawback that balances the whole thing. Sure you can make a combat monster creature of some kind, but that's not really saying much.

[TommyTwoToes]

Technomancers in general are debated a bit.

[Belvidere]

Technomancers in general are debated a bit.

The only time I see them as a problem is when they're the only resonance based... anything in the campaign. But I do know that alot of people have problems with them.

[BobChuck]

Can you elaborate? That's the last section of the book that I really haven't delved into yet (wel, that and actually running games).

Why are technomancers problematic or controversial? Which parts of thier mechanics create the most problems?

[Belvidere]

Can you elaborate? That's the last section of the book that I really haven't delved into yet (wel, that and actually running games).

Why are technomancers problematic or controversial? Which parts of thier mechanics create the most problems?

They tend to be able to get much higher dice pools when it comes to hacking/cybercombat then anyone relying on gear(A normal hacker). Munchkined correctly they can become matrix gods. Plus they have sprites just to make things even easier for them via matrix. But the drawback to playing one is you will probably always be on matrix support. Its easy to make a hacker who can go in the meat, it requires a serious amount of munchkinism to make a technomancer who's still good at hacking and can go in the meat.

[Medicineman]

the HMHVV is deadly by RAW (deadly meaning you can throw away your char if infected)

Heightened Position Combat Modifiers (especially with Trolls and Dwarfes)
Climbing Claws modifier (+2 Total or +8 ?)
these were some of our Rules Pitfalls

He who dances with Pitfall Harry
Medicineman

[LurkerOutThere]

Actually in mind mind stick and shock is at it's most broken in small arms where it is staging damage up. Ammo that stages my hammeril from 4 to 6 and is resisted with half armor? Yes please. I just pretend it doesn't exist, actually makes taking people alive require specialized tactics again.

The infection rules are deadly by raw.

I have not found technomancers to be particularly troublesome, the more they specialize the more their vulnerable.

The armor stacking rules are wonky especially with things like form fitting body armor in the mix.

Some wonky things can be done when you heal drain, can quickly lead to some really bottomless casters.

Honestly the best defense against rules cheesedickery is just having a quick talk with your players, you could go through a long document on house rules or you could just hold veto power on character creation and encourage them to take less min maxed options. Remind them that your not really their enemy and if they don't game the system, you won't do so either.

It's for this reason that my home game on Thursday nights plays vastly different from my missions game on Sunday.

[TommyTwoToes]

They tend to be able to get much higher dice pools when it comes to hacking/cybercombat then anyone relying on gear(A normal hacker). Munchkined correctly they can become matrix gods. Plus they have sprites just to make things even easier for them via matrix. But the drawback to playing one is you will probably always be on matrix support. Its easy to make a hacker who can go in the meat, it requires a serious amount of munchkinism to make a technomancer who's still good at hacking and can go in the meat.

And when using unwired.... There is an echo that gives you pseudo skillwires, so you can be threading your own skillwires so you have very available skill in the game.

Threading extra stealth rating means you never get seen

Sprites (which are analogous <God my spelling is aweful> to spirits) cost no money, just time.

Unhackable node (your own head). Where you can run a Tac Net, which becomes roughly unhackable.

No program limit.

[Yerameyahu]

TMs are still very one-trick and very Karma-intensive. Not unplayable, no, and great at their speciality, yes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[BobChuck]

The point is, Technomancers are clearly controversial, as evidenced by this discussion. Thank you for the information (and demonstration (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ).

What else?

[Johnny B. Good]

Shapeshifters, AIs, and free spirit PCs. The rules/stats could have been done a LOT better. Shapeshifters are either too good or too terrible, notables being the Wolf Shifter being worst (Huge waste of BP, not including qualities you lose 65 BP) and Jaguar being best at a net gain of 5BP from stats alone, does not include qualities like regeneration. Bear shifter is better if you're going to be a bruiser, 30 BP gain from stats plus regeneration, +1 reach and +1 natural armor. He does have some nasty caps on the mental stats though. But really, if you're going to break the game and make a bear you may as well make him an adept so he can burrow through walls at walking speed, too.

Free spirits are just wonky, especially for upgrading stats. I understand it none.

AIs can be neat, but they're rather limited in scope.

And to top it off, all of these are distinctly non-metahooman, meaning if you want to play one you're going to have to think like one.

In short: Hurrr you're a bear.

[Yerameyahu]

I think Surprise is a messy little area.

[D2F]

I have not found technomancers to be particularly troublesome, the more they specialize the more their vulnerable.

You can Build a Technomancer with points of Essence worth of Cyber/Bio and still have 2 Resonance at the start of play, without paying a single BP to increase your resonance. I think that's pretty controversial.

[The Grue Master]

I think Surprise is a messy little area.

Definitely not trying to troll here, I'm genuinely curious what your beef with Surprise could be?

[LurkerOutThere]

Mages are pretty controversial, possession mages doubly so. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[DireRadiant]

You can Build a Technomancer with points of Essence worth of Cyber/Bio and still have 2 Resonance at the start of play, without paying a single BP to increase your resonance. I think that's pretty controversial.

Interesting. I know buying Technomancer Positive Quality gives you 1 resonance to start with. I'm curious where the other comes from. And then how you get Cyber or Bioware without losing essence and resonance unless you deliberately use a non standard order of operations. Which you could do exactly the same with Mages. And since you can do that with Mages, then it's not inherently a TM build, but any build.

[Yerameyahu]

The rules are a little schizophrenic about whether you get 'passive' Defense benefits (Cover, movement, etc.), and then the rules for who surprises whom, in and out of combat, and what actions you can take, are just a mess. Two pages in SR4A contradict about whether you can drop prone or not, what constitutes an ambush is basically up to the GM (which is fine), and overall it's simply more complicated than necessary. I'm not saying it's a big deal, but it's in the same ballpark as some of the above areas.

I'm curious about this 2 Res Techno claim as well. Smells like deliberate misreading.

[The Grue Master]

The rules are a little schizophrenic about whether you get 'passive' Defense benefits (Cover, movement, etc.), and then the rules for who surprises whom, in and out of combat, and what actions you can take, are just a mess. Two pages in SR4A contradict about whether you can drop prone or not, what constitutes an ambush is basically up to the GM (which is fine), and overall it's simply more complicated than necessary. I'm not saying it's a big deal, but it's in the same ballpark as some of the above areas.

I shall go read the rules again; this is news to me.

[D2F]

Interesting. I know buying Technomancer Positive Quality gives you 1 resonance to start with. I'm curious where the other comes from. And then how you get Cyber or Bioware without losing essence and resonance unless you deliberately use a non standard order of operations. Which you could do exactly the same with Mages. And since you can do that with Mages, then it's not inherently a TM build, but any build.

5 BP for the Technomancer Quality -> Resonance 1
4 Essence points worth of Bioware/Cyberware -> Resonance -3
[Start of play]
Improve Resonance from -3 to -2: 10 Karma gained
Improve Resonance from -2 to -1: 5 Karma gained
Improve Resonance from -1 to 0: no cost
Improve Resonance from 0 to 1: 5 Karma cost
Improve Resonance from 1 to 2: 10 Karma cost

Final Resonance Rating: 2
net cost: 0 Karma