Split Dice Pools, What is split, how and where do the rules mention it? Options

[Llewelyn]

So I have seen a number of posts talking about how attacking with two weapons has its pros and cons. One of the pros in particular is that you split the dice pool then add modifiers. But I can't seem to find that anywhere in the rules, I have the 20th Anniversary. I have only seen where it talks about what a dice pool is Skill + Attribute + modifiers and that when doing multiple attacks you split your dice pool, but nothing that says what the dice pool consists. Logically from the definition of the dice pool at the start of the rules it would seem like you would add modifiers then split that total so the sum of the split pools equaled the starting total.

Specifically I am looking for a reference from the book, I prefer the idea of the dice pool being affected by the modifiers after the split, but just can seem to find it in the rules. Any help is appreciated.

Thanks

[Mäx]

Page 150 "Attacker using a second firearm"
But its not really such a good idea as you lose smartlink/laser and there arent actually that many positive modifiers you can get and there are a lot of negative modifiers.
Spell on the other hand are good for multicasting that works the same way as there are much more positive modifiers availebul, what you get from your split base pool isn't as important when you have a for example +9 modifier added to all of those pools.

[Llewelyn]

Page 150 "Attacker using a second firearm"
But its not really such a good idea as you lose smartlink/laser and there arent actually that many positive modifiers you can get and there are a lot of negative modifiers.
Spell on the other hand are good for multicasting that works the same way as there are much more positive modifiers availebul, what you get from your split base pool isn't as important when you have a for example +9 modifier added to all of those pools.

OK I know I read that like 5 times the other day and didn't catch it. Thanks

[BobChuck]

Okay, but that doesn't address the actual question? What is the "dice pool" and what is the "modifiers"? Could I get some examples, say for two pistols, two swords, two spells, and two related skill checks (like jumping onto a 5ft high narrow wall and then balancing/running down it)?

[Johnny B. Good]

Page 150 "Attacker using a second firearm"
But its not really such a good idea as you lose smartlink/laser and there arent actually that many positive modifiers you can get and there are a lot of negative modifiers.
Spell on the other hand are good for multicasting that works the same way as there are much more positive modifiers availebul, what you get from your split base pool isn't as important when you have a for example +9 modifier added to all of those pools.

Do you actually lose bonuses from smartlink that way? If you try to use a smartlink on both it works fluffwise, but if you use a smartlink on one and fire the other normally, does that one get a bonus? Page numbers are always appreciated.

[Laodicea]

I could swear there's rules for attacking multiple people in melee in 1 turn but i cannot think where they are. Don't have my book on me atm either.

[Draco18s]

What is the "dice pool"

Attribute + Skill. This is always the dice pool.

and what is the "modifiers"?

Everything else. Specialization, cover, mentor spirit, tacnet, enhanced articulation....

[Lanlaorn]

Okay, but that doesn't address the actual question? What is the "dice pool" and what is the "modifiers"? Could I get some examples, say for two pistols, two swords, two spells, and two related skill checks (like jumping onto a 5ft high narrow wall and then balancing/running down it)?

The dice pools would Agility + Firearms skill, Agility + Melee skill and Spellcasting + Magic, respectively. The modifiers would be visibility, specializations, etc. with a few that are unique to each (e.g. reach for melee, foci for spells). And yes running or balancing would both be (negative) modifiers.

It makes sense since otherwise splitting your dice pool would halve negative penalties when logically they should fully apply regardless.

[Johnny B. Good]

The dice pools would Agility + Firearms skill, Agility + Melee skill and Spellcasting + Magic, respectively. The modifiers would be visibility, specializations, etc. with a few that are unique to each (e.g. reach for melee, foci for spells). And yes running or balancing would both be (negative) modifiers.

It makes sense since otherwise splitting your dice pool would halve negative penalties when logically they should fully apply regardless.

Don't forget skill + Program!

[BobChuck]

Okay, thank you. I apologize for the very basic questions, but I've only had the book for two weeks.

Does splitting your dice pool count as one action for both roles together, or a separate action for each? Like with one pistol, attacking once is a Simple Action. Attacking twice is two Simple Actions, with two full dice pools? or a split dice pool and one Simple Action? or a split dice pool and two Simple Acitons?

Mechanics: Say Agility 5, Pistols 5, Smartlink, and just for fun throw in an active Flash-Pak in the area as well. Assume the pistol has autofire or multishot or whatever, so it can get around the rule that I can't quite recall that says Single Action guns can only fire once per "some time period".

Second example: same stats as above, but using a pair of Single Action pistols. What changes?

Third example: melee combat with a sword. Agility 5, Blades 5, effective Reach of 1. Attacking is a complex action, so he only gets to make one "attack action" on his turn. Can the swordfighter attack the same target twice, using split dice pools? If so, what happens? Can he attack two different targets using split dice pools?

[Mäx]

Does splitting your dice pool count as one action for both roles together, or a separate action for each? Like with one pistol, attacking once is a Simple Action. Attacking twice is two Simple Actions, with two full dice pools? or a split dice pool and one Simple Action? or a split dice pool and two Simple Acitons?

When you split your dicepool you do multiple thinks simultaniously, meaning one simple action to shoot 2-6guns or attack with 2-6 melee weapons or cast 2-how ever many you want spells, well the melee and spell is one comblex action but you get the picture.

[BobChuck]

So with mages, dice pool of 10, split in half, add in a spell focus of 4, and get Improved Reflexes and Combat Sense running so you dont get shot, free action dive for cover, use next pass to move things to sustaining foci, third pass pop up and throw a pair of stunbolts at someone... wow.

Okay, mages suddenly got a lot more dangerous, and using things to penalize enemy attacks got a lot more valuable. Makes sense.

[DireRadiant]

From p. 150 SR4A

"Characters can use two pistol- or SMG-class weapons, one in each
hand, firing both with a single Simple Action. Doing so, however, requires
that the character split his dice pool between the attacks. If two
separate skills are being used (Pistols and Automatics), use the smallest
dice pool. Split the pool before applying modifiers. Two-gun attacks
also negate any dice pool bonuses from smartlinks or laser sights.
Additionally, any uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one
weapon also apply to the other weapon."

Let's break this down and see how it goes.

BobChuck has an SMG and a Pistol and is firing both in a single Simple Action.

BobChuck will use the first simple action to aim. And second simple action to fire. This will be the two simple actions allowed.

Simple Action 1. Aim
Simple Action 2, fire SMG and Pistol at the same time.
BobChuck has Pistols 3 and Automatics 7 and Agility 4, and a Specialization in Ingram, which is the SMG he is using.
Base Pool is Agility 4 + Pistols 3(Using the lower of the two different skills). BobChuck has 7 dice to split between the two dice rolls.

Dice Roll 1 - Pistol (BobChuck allocates 6 dice out of 7)
7 + Aiming modifier of 1 = 8 dice
Dice Roll 2 - SMG (BobChuck allocates the remaining die)
1 + SMG Specialization 2 + Aiming 1 = 4 dice

No smartlinks modifiers apply. Flashpak modifiers would apply to both dice rolls. Cover modifers would apply to both dice rolls.

Example with complex action
Agility 5 + Blades 5 = base pool 10

Attack 1 (BobChuck assigns 1 dice out of ten)
1 + Reach 1 = 2
Attack 2 (BobChuck assigns 9 dice)
9 + Reach 1 = 10

Technically SR4A does split dice pools for attacking multiple targets, but I personally see no reason for it to be a multiple attack against the same target.

Reason for edit: Math

[Johnny B. Good]

So with mages, dice pool of 10, split in half, add in a spell focus of 4, and get Improved Reflexes and Combat Sense running so you dont get shot, free action dive for cover, use next pass to move things to sustaining foci, third pass pop up and throw a pair of stunbolts at someone... wow.

Okay, mages suddenly got a lot more dangerous, and using things to penalize enemy attacks got a lot more valuable. Makes sense.

Apparently spell focuses have to be for a certain type of spell though, which I think is silly. Meaning separate foci for manipulation, health, and combat. Solution: Force 3 power focus.

[Cabral]

Dice Roll 1 - Pistol (BobChuck allocates 6 dice out of 7)
7 + Aiming modifier of 1 = 2 dice

I think you mean a total of 8 dice.

I may be thinking of SR3 but I think there is an Aim spell that will make dice pool splitting gunslingers and mages best of buds. Actually, I'm pretty sure that was SR3. Did it make it over to 4th?

[czarcasm]

DireRadiant: I hadn't realized that you could allocate the split dice; I had thought that you had to use half the dice for each test. I had also thought that you could only Take Aim for one firearm per action, not two. You learn something new every day!

[Draco18s]

DireRadiant: I hadn't realized that you could allocate the split dice; I had thought that you had to use half the dice for each test. I had also thought that you could only Take Aim for one firearm per action, not two. You learn something new every day!

I thought it was half as well, but I will admit that I've heard mumblings otherwise. And I think you're right about Take Aim.

[BobChuck]

Since it's popped up a few times: when does Smart Link apply, and when does it not?

Applies to Ranged Weapons that have the Smartgun trait or upgrade.
Does not apply to most Ranged Weapons that do not have the Smartgun trait/mod.
Does not apply to Melee Attacks.

Does it apply to grenades? thrown weapons in general? How does it know when you are throwing a Grenade vs throwing a Knife?
Does it apply to Bows and Crossbows, and the like, if they have the Smartgun trait?
Does it apply if the gun has a Laser Sight, or is that a separate or incompatible modifier?

Smartlink applies when making a single attack with a single weapon.
Does it apply when using two pistols?
Does it apply when splitting the dice pool in general, like with a semi/auto rifle shooting at multiple targets?

[BobChuck]

double post.

[Mäx]

Apparently spell focuses have to be for a certain type of spell though, which I think is silly. Meaning separate foci for manipulation, health, and combat. Solution: Force 3 power focus.

When you only have combat spells, a rating 5 spellcasting foci is really nice and combined with mentor bonus and a specialisation makes you one mean mofo when multicasting 2-5 combat spells a turn.

Since it's popped up a few times: when does Smart Link apply, and when does it not?

1Applies to Ranged Weapons that have the Smartgun trait or upgrade.
2Does not apply to most Ranged Weapons that do not have the Smartgun trait/mod.
3Does not apply to Melee Attacks.

4Does it apply to grenades? thrown weapons in general? How does it know when you are throwing a Grenade vs throwing a Knife?
5Does it apply to Bows and Crossbows, and the like, if they have the Smartgun trait?
6Does it apply if the gun has a Laser Sight, or is that a separate or incompatible modifier?

7Smartlink applies when making a single attack with a single weapon.
8Does it apply when using two pistols?
9Does it apply when splitting the dice pool in general, like with a semi/auto rifle shooting at multiple targets?

adeed numbers for ease of answering
1.yes
2.no
3.no
4.no
5.no, except maybe crosbows.
6.incompatible
7.yes
8.yes,unless you shoot them simultaniuosly.
9.Shooting multiple targets with one burst doesn't reguier slitting of the pool and semi.auto weapons cant shoot multiple target with a same action they only shoot out a single bullet per action.

[DireRadiant]

DireRadiant: I hadn't realized that you could allocate the split dice; I had thought that you had to use half the dice for each test. I had also thought that you could only Take Aim for one firearm per action, not two. You learn something new every day!

Well, the rules aren't explicit about those kind of restrictions, so I generally allow more freedom, but that's just me. People can interpret it differently if they want.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, the norm is 'split evenly'.

[sn0mm1s]

According to RAW you don't even need to split your spellcasting pool if you are casting multiple spells at the same target - the drain still increases though.

Casting Multiple Spells: In some circumstances, a magician
may seek to cast multiple spells simultaneously (including multiples
of the same spell—for example, targeting two different opponents
with a mana bolt in the same action). Multiple spells may be cast with
the same Complex Action, but to do so the magician must split her
Spellcasting + Magic dice pool between each target. Additionally, the
Drain Value for each of the spells is increased by +1 per additional
spell (Drain Resistance Tests are also handled separately). Multiple
spells are resolved in whatever order the caster desires. The maximum
number of spells a character can cast in a single Complex Action is
equal to her Spellcasting skill, and each spell must be allocated at least
one die.

[Yerameyahu]

Does it even say you *can* cast twice at the same target, and doesn't each casting of a spell have its own 'target', even if it's the same person? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I think the latter is the more convincing, of course. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[DireRadiant]

According to RAW you don't even need to split your spellcasting pool if you are casting multiple spells at the same target - the drain still increases though.

Casting Multiple Spells: In some circumstances, a magician
may seek to cast multiple spells simultaneously (including multiples
of the same spell—for example, targeting two different opponents
with a mana bolt in the same action). Multiple spells may be cast with
the same Complex Action, but to do so the magician must split her
Spellcasting + Magic dice pool between each target. Additionally, the
Drain Value for each of the spells is increased by +1 per additional
spell (Drain Resistance Tests are also handled separately). Multiple
spells are resolved in whatever order the caster desires. The maximum
number of spells a character can cast in a single Complex Action is
equal to her Spellcasting skill, and each spell must be allocated at least
one die.

I think the "Between each target" includes the time and POV differential so even if it is Fred you're casting at both times you need to think of all the permutations.

While you are targeting Fred with the first spell, you are also targeting fred with the second spell.
You are targeting Fred.
Fred is your Target.
You are targeting Fred with your first spell
You are targeting Fred with your second spell.
Fred is your target.
Fred is the target of the first spell.
Fred is the target of the second spell.

Since each Spell that is cast requires a portion of the pool in the same complex action when cast against different individual targets, I would then also require the pool to be split for each casting of a spell against the same target in the same complex action.