[X] My Assistant

[toturi]

That infiltration is used while stationary.

Why can't Infiltration be used while stationary? Infiltration is used when sneaking around undetected by other characters or security sensors. If that sneaking around involves being stationary at certain times, I do not see why it is not.

[Doc Chase]

Why can't Infiltration be used while stationary? Infiltration is used when sneaking around undetected by other characters or security sensors. If that sneaking around involves being stationary at certain times, why not?

Got me. It's not me challenging the assumption, only clarifying the argument. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[StealthSigma]

What assumption are you challenging?

This one. It is not that infiltration is used when stationary, but that infiltration is not used by remaining stationary for long periods of time. The math makes that assumption silly.

Using any of the three methods has everything to do with blending yourself into the background. It is precisely because you have to be in the appropriate environment for a ghillie suit or camouflage to function if you are trying to blend in that Disguise should be used. The outfit breaks up your outlines and makes you appear as something part of the background and that is Disguise.

Since the outfits apply a penalty to perception they apply regardless of whether infiltration or disguise is used. What I have done use shown what I feel is the best case scenario for your dice pool for each skill. It means that a sniper wearing a ghillie who has hidden himself is EASIER to see than a sniper that's wearing a ghillie suit and jumping around. To spot the hidden sniper you would need a perception pool of 21 to spot the sniper, while the one hopping around would require a perception pool of 23 to spot (+3 dice to each pool if you have to beat the opponent with the perception check). But damn, if they're both wearing chameleon suits? You need a perception pool of 21 to see the hidden sniper and 25 to spot the hopping sniper (once again, +3 dice to each pool if you need to beat the check).

Infiltration will ALWAYS be superior to disguise just for the simple fact that you can augment your agility past the natural cap. Ergo, if you use disguise while hiding yourself, then you're harming yourself by using an inferior dice pool.

[Doc Chase]

Didn't Infiltration have a specialization for Hiding, or am I living in SR3 again?

[StealthSigma]

Didn't Infiltration have a specialization for Hiding, or am I living in SR3 again?

Urban, Wilderness, Vehicle, or by detection method.

[toturi]

Since the outfits apply a penalty to perception they apply regardless of whether infiltration or disguise is used. What I have done use shown what I feel is the best case scenario for your dice pool for each skill. It means that a sniper wearing a ghillie who has hidden himself is EASIER to see than a sniper that's wearing a ghillie suit and jumping around. To spot the hidden sniper you would need a perception pool of 21 to spot the sniper, while the one hopping around would require a perception pool of 23 to spot (+3 dice to each pool if you have to beat the opponent with the perception check). But damn, if they're both wearing chameleon suits? You need a perception pool of 21 to see the hidden sniper and 25 to spot the hopping sniper (once again, +3 dice to each pool if you need to beat the check).

Infiltration will ALWAYS be superior to disguise just for the simple fact that you can augment your agility past the natural cap. Ergo, if you use disguise while hiding yourself, then you're harming yourself by using an inferior dice pool.

All you have shown is that given equal skill at Disguise and Infiltration and with Agility at augmented maximum and Intuition at natural maximum (which by definition is always lower than augmented maximum) the sniper that is constantly using Infiltration is harder to detect.

Is the augmented maximum the absolute maximum that an Attribute can reach?

[StealthSigma]

All you have shown is that given equal skill at Disguise and Infiltration and with Agility at augmented maximum and Intuition at natural maximum (which by definition is always lower than augmented maximum) the sniper that is constantly using Infiltration is harder to detect.

Also what is the maximum that an Attribute can get?

Exactly. A sniper using infiltration is harder to detect than disguise. I then explained in a scenario how that disguise when hiding is silly. A sniper that is harder to detect while hopping about in the woods compared to a sniper that is actively hiding himself via a ghillie suit is the penultimate of stupid. When you have an end affect (not being seen) governed by two different skills, the player and character would be stupid to choose the inferior method. Since the bonuses for using agility outweigh the penalties gained by using disguise, a player with a strong infiltration skill with choose to move constantly to avoid being seen, even if it's just back and forth over a meter, when sanity dictates that remaining still should create a harder to detect character. The latter situation is only true when the character is specialized towards disguise and has a vastly strong intuition than agility attribute.

This is all brought about by the fact that you cannot directly augment Willpower, Intuition, or Body [Except for Suprathyroid Gland], while you can easily get +3 to Strength, Reaction, Agility, and Logic. I believe the maximum direct augmentation to each stat is Strength (5), Agility (5), Reaction (4), Body (1), Logic (3), Charisma (0), Willpower (0), and Intuition (0). I know some people apply Tailored Pheromones to charisma, but it says charisma test, not the attribute.

Natural maximum is the highest a character can reach via improving his attributes via karma. Augmented maximum is the absolutely highest the character can reach via augmentations, which is added after your natural stat.
For a human, dwarf, or orc, a natural agility of 8, with an augmented max of 12 and a natural intuition of 8 with an augmented max of 12. (4 dice agility advantage)
For an elf, a natural agility of 9, with an augmented max of 13 and a natural intuition of 8 with an augmented max of 12. (5 dice agility advantage)
For a troll, a natural agility of 7, with an augmented max of 10 and a natural intuition of 7 with an augmented max of 10. (3 dice agility advantage)

[Mäx]

Exactly. A sniper using infiltration is harder to detect than disguise. I then explained in a scenario how that disguise when hiding is silly. A sniper that is harder to detect while hopping about in the woods compared to a sniper that is actively hiding himself via a ghillie suit is the penultimate of stupid.

Except that the dude hopping around isn't infiltrating and as such is a whole lot easier to see. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[StealthSigma]

Except that the dude hopping around isn't infiltrating and as such is a whole lot easier to see. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

That's GM fiat. I could say I'm hopping stealthily. I could say I'm moving back and forth slowly. The point still stands that it's HARDER to detect the moving character than the stationary character. Would it be better that you can have a sniper hidden with another sniper slowly moving back and forth over him and you'd be more likely to see the hidden sniper.

Or how about this level of stupidity. The sniper can be moving back and forth on top of a hidden sniper, and the moving sniper would be more likely to spot the hidden one than the hidden one spotting the moving one.

[toturi]

Natural maximum is the highest a character can reach via improving his attributes via karma. Augmented maximum is the absolutely highest the character can reach via augmentations, which is added after your natural stat.

If this is true, then there is no reason why you are using the natural maximum for Intuition but augmented maximum for Agility. If there is no cap on how high an attribute can be increased, then it is silly to make comparisons.

You can directly increase a mental attribute.

[Doc Chase]

In essence, you're saying that the long-range sniper team is easier to spot than a covert operator with an MP-5 sneaking into your building.

Have distance modifiers been brought into play here?

[The Grue Master]

You know what. I'm going to directly challenge your assumption. Show me the highest infiltration check and disguise check you can achieve on a human. If you can get a disguise pool higher than your infiltration pool, then I'll start to lend credence to disguise being used when stationary. It does NOT make sense for your ability to remain unseen be better when you are moving compared to when you aren't moving.

I really don't understand how min-maxing something on a human is your basis for interpretation of the rules. As for everyone else, p.133 SR4A clearly states that disguise, while used to craft disguises still results in an opposed test between the crafter and future perceivers. It does not just result in a negative modifier to future attempts by others to detect your infiltration. What you are wearing generates a modifier for their pool, how you wear it results in the threshold for their perception test. This is the same for infiltration and disguise.

It is my opinion that disguise is linked to intuition because it does not require the same degree of physical dexterity as infiltration but instead requires you to imagine what people will be looking for and to anticipate how to fool them. It also seems reasonable to me that remaining undetected while moving (infiltrating) is much easier than remaining undetected while motionless. Movement generates more noise but leaves open the option to avoid being observed directly but disguise requires you to be perceived directly and still fool them. This is the difference between sneaking around in the woods while avoiding the people trying to find you and merely lying still under some twigs and leaves and having them walk right past you.

Edit: A lot got posted while I was typing this.

I'd also argue that any sniper who isn't just a fool with a gun will be using both disguise and infiltration regularly. Shoot, move, conceal, shoot, move, conceal, etc.

[StealthSigma]

If this is true, then there is no reason why you are using the natural maximum for Intuition but augmented maximum for Agility.

Yes there is. There's no augmentations that improve intuition! I only just discovered two drugs that each give +1 Intuition (Psyche and Trance). Unfortunately, Trance induces paralysis so you wouldn't be able to get that benefit prior to making your disguise. However you can easily get +5 agility from augmentations. So at best you're still dealing with a three dice disadvantage when using disguise.

I will admit that I haven't looked at magical method to improve Intuition, but those would require you to be Awakened in order to make disguise on par with Infiltration and Infiltration would still remain prime among the mundane.

[toturi]

Yes there is. There's no augmentations that improve intuition!

I will admit that I haven't looked at magical method to improve Intuition, but those would require you to be Awakened in order to make disguise on par with Infiltration and Infiltration would still remain prime among the mundane.

There are no cybernetics or bioware that improve Intuition. Spells can still benefit mundanes.

[Mäx]

This is all brought about by the fact that you cannot directly augment Willpower, Intuition, or Body [Except for Suprathyroid Gland], while you can easily get +3 to Strength, Reaction, Agility, and Logic. I believe the maximum direct augmentation to each stat is Strength (5), Agility (5), Reaction (4), Body (1), Logic (3), Charisma (0), Willpower (0), and Intuition (0). I know some people apply Tailored Pheromones to charisma, but it says charisma test, not the attribute.

Natural maximum is the highest a character can reach via improving his attributes via karma. Augmented maximum is the absolutely highest the character can reach via augmentations, which is added after your natural stat.
For a human, dwarf, or orc, a natural agility of 8, with an augmented max of 12 and a natural intuition of 8 with an augmented max of 12. (4 dice agility advantage)
For an elf, a natural agility of 9, with an augmented max of 13 and a natural intuition of 8 with an augmented max of 12. (5 dice agility advantage)
For a troll, a natural agility of 7, with an augmented max of 10 and a natural intuition of 7 with an augmented max of 10. (3 dice agility advantage)

This is where you fail hard, so your saying that Agility linked skill can get more dice then Intuition linked skill when you use natural max of intuition and augmented max of agility.
To that there is only one think that i can say.
No shit Cherlock, really thats some amazing feat deduction.

[StealthSigma]

I really don't understand how min-maxing something on a human is your basis for interpretation of the rules. As for everyone else, p.133 SR4A clearly states that disguise, while used to craft disguises still results in an opposed test between the crafter and future perceivers. It does not just result in a negative modifier to future attempts by others to detect your infiltration. What you are wearing generates a modifier for their pool, how you wear it results in the threshold for their perception test. This is the same for infiltration and disguise.

The point to min-maxing is to figure out what advantage you have in infiltration over disguise. Because of how the system works, you would need to have a total of a three point advantage between intuition and disguise over agility and infiltration in order for disguise to be COMPARABLE in effective to infiltration instead of being WEAKER. Mechanically, infiltration and disguise operate identically. They set the threshold that the observer must meet/beat in order to detect you. With disguise, you make your check when you create the disguise and that operates the entire time. With infiltration one of two things happen depending on how the GM wants to do it, you either make an infiltration vs perception check each time someone can observe you or you make a single infiltration check that lasts for a certain period of time, quite like disguise.

It is my opinion that disguise is linked to intuition because it does not require the same degree of physical dexterity as infiltration but instead requires you to imagine what people will be looking for and to anticipate how to fool them. It also seems reasonable to me that remaining undetected while moving (infiltrating) is much easier than remaining undetected while motionless. Movement generates more noise but leaves open the option to avoid being observed directly but disguise requires you to be perceived directly and still fool them. This is the difference between sneaking around in the woods while avoiding the people trying to find you and merely lying still under some twigs and leaves and having them walk right past you.

It is not reasonable that a moving target is harder to spot than an immobile target. Visual sight and noticing objects is based on two factor, outlines and movement. You're FAR more likely to notice a moving object than an immobile one.

I'd also argue that any sniper who isn't just a fool with a gun will be using both disguise and infiltration regularly. Shoot, move, conceal, shoot, move, conceal, etc.

I agree, that's how things should happen, but due to the dice pool advantage you can get while using infiltration compared to disguise, there's no point to try hiding yourself somewhere else, just break line of sight in order to get a new infiltration check. Using disguise as a hide skill will cause players to behave in a way that is counter-intuitive to how things work.

[The Grue Master]

The point to min-maxing is to figure out what advantage you have in infiltration over disguise. Because of how the system works, you would need to have a total of a three point advantage between intuition and disguise over agility and infiltration in order for disguise to be COMPARABLE in effective to infiltration instead of being WEAKER. Mechanically, infiltration and disguise operate identically. They set the threshold that the observer must meet/beat in order to detect you. With disguise, you make your check when you create the disguise and that operates the entire time. With infiltration one of two things happen depending on how the GM wants to do it, you either make an infiltration vs perception check each time someone can observe you or you make a single infiltration check that lasts for a certain period of time, quite like disguise.

Unfortunately, this isn't how the rules work. You often make tests that aren't as good as another skill you have, just because of the situation. And secondly, it's not just disguise/infiltration we're talking about, there is also shadowing and palming. But I doubt you'd argue that palming should be used instead of infiltration, just because you have nimble fingers.

[Cabral]

I have to agree that the ability to remain motionless is better reflected by Agility than Intuition. I'm not sure about Disguise versus Infiltration, but I suspect that I'd vote Infiltration with the possibility of a modifier from a Disguise roll, if appropriate.

For those that say that this falls under the purview of Disguise, what do you think of a Disguise+Infiltration test?

[cndblank]

Perhaps a better say to handle the Disguise/Infiltration question is to allow Disguise successes to be used to provide a bonus to your Infiltration roll when the opportunity arises to make good use of camouflage.

Say half your Disguise successes rounded up added as a bonus to your Infiltration roll.

A good disguise/camouflage aids in staying hidden, be it is setting up a blind, picking the right camouflage pattern, or blending in some native vegetation to a Gilli suit.

Certainly limit the total bonus based on how much time and resources are available to set up the camouflage.

But even something as simple as scoping out the target's route to pick out the perfect ambush spot before hand should provide some bonus.

Also even a massive +6 bonus to the Infiltration roll is only going to increase the target's perception threshold by 2 on average (not unreasonable for a well camouflaged blind).




Using half the Disguise roll successes to make the bonus more based on PC rather than just a GM granted bonus (but limit the total bonus to a reasonable level based on the PC making the best of what is available).

That will allow a very creative ambusher to be just as hidden as a very agile one with a little before hand prep.

[StealthSigma]

This is where you fail hard, so your saying that Agility linked skill can get more dice then Intuition linked skill when you use natural max of intuition and augmented max of agility.
To that there is only one think that i can say.
No shit Cherlock, really thats some amazing feat deduction.

The only reason I fail at all with using the max augmented cap (Suprathyroid + Muscle Toner = +5 Agility) for Agility while only using the natural cap for Intuition is because I forgot Psyche can temporary increase your Intuition, putting you at 12 Agility vs 9 Intuition. I also have very little understanding of how magic works in Shadowrun, so I don't know whether or not it is possible to get to the augmented cap in Intuition but but as far as I can tell from a brief reading of the adept powers section, I didn't find any way to improve mental attributes through adept powers and I didn't find any spells in a brief reading that improve Intuition.

Disguise is always going to be disadvantaged by the fact that you cannot augment its linked attribute as readily as you can Infiltration.

--

Unfortunately, this isn't how the rules work. You often make tests that aren't as good as another skill you have, just because of the situation. And secondly, it's not just disguise/infiltration we're talking about, there is also shadowing and palming. But I doubt you'd argue that palming should be used instead of infiltration, just because you have nimble fingers.

You underestimate players. You want them to do A, however they don't want to do A because it's inferior to do B. They will take actions to go with B rather than stick with option A. So you as a GM are now presented with a situation where you let them do B or you railroad them into doing A.

If moving back and forth over a distance of 25-50m is going to make it harder for the enemy to detect me compared to trying to hide myself in a spot, you better believe I'm going to move back and forth over that 25-50m distance.

I don't think the problem exists between Infiltration and Shadowing. Shadowing is very direct in its usage, which is for when you're following someone. I'm not sure why you would even bring up Palming vs Infiltration given that with Palming since it says it is used to conceal small objects or lift them from another person.

[Whiskey]

I think this might be one situation where the GM should step in and do what's best for his group, irregardless of what RAW calls for.

For me... I think I would call it by separating what the targets are looking for. To look for HIM, that's a perception against the disguise. But looking for a muzzle flash and to figure out where the shot came from, that's a contested perception vs infiltration, rolled at the time that the player fires. Of course if the target isn't looking then he's in trouble (surprise round)... Assuming he lives and the sniper holds his ground (and doesn't fire or break cover), target's back to trying to beat that threshold. He might get a general idea of what direction it came from (1+ hits but less then threshold if I was feeling mean...) but until he knows for sure where the sniper is, he's shooting in the dark. And breaking cover to go look for said sniper might be in the sniper's best interest...

E.g.
Player goes stealth and sneaks into the area set up, he's there well ahead of said target (disguise roll to make his blind, 3 hits).
Corper rolls into the camp site and unloads, his guards look around for trouble (and don't get better then threshold on their perception checks).
Corp comes out of his camper with fishing rod in hand. Player fires... -pop-
The guards make perception vs his infiltration (and threshold 3) to look for the muzzle flash. Failed. Even if they had succeeded, they needed threshold to locate him. Anything short, they get a general idea of where.. but not exactly.
Player opts to stay hidden, not fire and just observe. He's depending on his blind to protect him.
The guards they fan out and search (and reduce their distance penalties).
Player slinks out (contested perception vs infiltration).

I know it may not be RAW, but doing it that way allows the player the benefit of cover and add a little to the drama... Now... player has to understand that it can be used against him too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif) And a pair of snipers that have all angles covered can be a total party kill if players suddenly get a case of the stupids.

[Mäx]

Okey i think i have to do you a maxed discuise dicepool and lets see if you can top that.
Character is an adept with Metagenetic Improvment(Intuition),Genetic optimization(Intuition) and Aptitude(Disguise):
Intuition 12(whether thats from Increase intuition spell cast by a friendly mage or from a combination of geneware and drugs)
Disguise 10(improved skill power)
Spec 2
Rating 3 limbic nanites
so thats 12+10+2+3= 27 dice

[Whiskey]

Okey i think i have to do you a maxed discuise dicepool and lets see if you can top that.
Character is an adept with Metagenetic Improvment(Intuition),Genetic optimization(Intuition) and Aptitude(Disguise):
Intuition 12(whether thats from Increase intuition spell cast by a friendly mage or from a combination of geneware and drugs)
Disguise 10(improved skill power)
Spec 2
Rating 3 limbic nanites
so thats 12+10+2+3= 27 dice

I would lean more towards geneware and drugs.. because if a friendly mage casts it on you then your tracable in the astral. NOT good... at that point it doesn't matter what your stealth score is. Mage switches sight, sees you.. your done.

This post has been edited by Whiskey: Jul 16 2010, 06:09 PM

[Mäx]

I would lean more towards geneware and drugs.. because if a friendly mage casts it on you then your tracable in the astral. NOT good... at that point it doesn't matter what your stealth score is. Mage switches sight, sees you.. your done.

Improved masking fixes that, i think.

[Whiskey]

Improved masking fixes that, i think.

It might... Still wouldn't risk it myself as even then there's ways.

At least with bioware and gene tech, you can hide behind a bush and the bush as it's alive will block LOS in the astral. The bioware and genetech show up as dark spots in your aura so you can actually use that to your advantage there.