Ruthenium Polymer Coating and Concealment, Do they stack? Options

[Elfenlied]

Quick rules question: Do Ruthenium polymers and the spirit power Concealment stack with each other? Is there any page in the books that clarifies this issue?

[Lanlaorn]

Why wouldn't they? It doesn't even say how concealment works except that it's good at everything.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, I don't see why they wouldn't.

[Garou]

in my game, they don't. As there is no resisted test for the effect to work other than the usual perception test, it is not a mental effect but a physical illusion, therefore, it either subvert the original concealment effect or it does not work well. No -10 perception modifiers on my campaign, mister... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Why wouldn't the magic simply help, hiding tiny telltale errors in the technological illusion? Perhaps it even distracts somehow. A little creativity is called for, it's magic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[D2F]

in my game, they don't. As there is no resisted test for the effect to work other than the usual perception test, it is not a mental effect but a physical illusion, therefore, it either subvert the original concealment effect or it does not work well. No -10 perception modifiers on my campaign, mister... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The Concealment Power is not an illusion.

[Mordinvan]

The Concealment Power is not an illusion.

I thought there was a spell either in street magic, or the digital grimore which did much the same thing however.

[Wasabi]

I think the Piercing Sight adept power says Concealment is 'Illusion-based' FWIW.

The mechanic for the Physical Camoflague spell from Street Magic acts like Ruthenium

[D2F]

I thought there was a spell either in street magic, or the digital grimore which did much the same thing however.

There is the Spell "Camouflage", which is also a Perception Pool modifier and I would NOT let Camouflage and Ruthenium Polymers stack (because they DO the same thing). The Concealment Power simply "hides" whatever it is effecting. How it does that is not mentioned. It is likely, it simply has everyone else look the wrong way, instead of changing the appearance.

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, Camouflage would simply override Ruthenium (if stronger).

[Mordinvan]

Yes, Camouflage would simply override Ruthenium (if stronger).

I was thinking the camouflage spell might cover over any inconsistencies in the ruthenium armors effects.

[Yerameyahu]

Oh, you mean if it's weaker than the Ruthenium?

[Mordinvan]

Oh, you mean if it's weaker than the Ruthenium?

I mean the ruthenium makes you hard to see, but is imperfect. The camouflage spell does much the same. It is possible that where one is weak in hiding you, the other is strong, thus both of them together would make you harder to see. I thinking like a teamwork test or something.

[Yerameyahu]

Hmm. I'm reluctant to simply stack them, but some kind of interaction could be reasonable. Should camouflage effects even go beyond -6, though? Blind is as bad as it gets, after all.

[Badmoodguy88]

Is a clear glass cup easier to make completely invisible than a black ceramic one?

Is a cup that is not completely invisible partially invisible.

If it is partially invisible is it harder to see?

I think they do stack. Concealment is not like an invisibility spell. If the spell is resisted then the target is completely seen. Concealment reduces dice from anyone trying to see the target. Ruthenium Polymer and any other camo also reduce the dice pool to spot some one because they make you less noticeable. In the same way that hiding behind a tree makes you less noticeable.

[Yerameyahu]

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

[Five Eyes]

Should camouflage effects even go beyond -6, though? Blind is as bad as it gets, after all.

I'm really starting to think that the modifier for blindness ought to be increased. Currently it creates a lot of scenarios where taking additional measures for your stealth purposes either results in preposterous outcomes ("He must have some sort of camouflage, everyone close your eyes so it's easier to find him") or you run into the cap, which reduces the incentive to bother with additional specialization and focus (which seems contrary to the general SR trend).

[Caadium]

Hmm. I'm reluctant to simply stack them, but some kind of interaction could be reasonable. Should camouflage effects even go beyond -6, though? Blind is as bad as it gets, after all.

This is inspired by previous editions armor rules, but how about something like this: Use the highest base plus 1/2 the lower (maybe with the -6 cap suggested, I'd have to look at the books to ponder that part).

[Yerameyahu]

Indeed, Five Eyes. I'm not sure why being blind isn't an autofail for *visual* tests. If you want to perceive aurally, fine, but then the camo doesn't do anything anyway.

[Nixda]

This is how I approach the problem: what does someone physically see if he manages to pierce the magical concealment ? He would still see the ruthenium effect, woudnt he ? Which should still give its game effects. So imho both effects would have to count.

I *do* realize however, that this can mean huge problems for game balance, especially for street-level games/campaigns. With no security doors/pressure pads/motion sensors or whatever stopping the runners, they would be able to have a relaxed stroll through even the most hostile gang territory, which seems problematic at best.

So a houserule to cap the penalty seems best to me.

That being said, I do not like the blind modifier too much. Between Intuition Attribute, Perception skill (+2 dice visual spec), Vision Enhancement 3 and Attention Coprocessor 3 some characters seem to have no problem seeing in total darkness even without thermographic vision.
And with some of the dice pools on player characters, only getting -6 dice for shooting isnt too crippling either.

[Yerameyahu]

Exactly. -6 is not much when we're talking about being literally unable to see; while someone's who's actually blind wouldn't get +2 (Visual) or Enhancement 3, it's still too easy to see while blind.

[Badmoodguy88]

Concealment subtracts from ANY perception test to find the target.

Concealment
Type: P • Action: Simple • Range: LOS • Duration: Sustained
This power refers to a critter’s ability to mystically hide itself or
others, or alternatively to hide something that people are looking
for. Concealment subtracts a number of dice equal to the critter’s
Magic from any Perception Tests to locate the concealed subject.
Concealment can be used on a number of targets simultaneously equal
to the critter’s Magic; concealed subjects can see each other if the critter
allows it. Concealment also allows dual natured critters to conceal
themselves and others from astral detection.

When concealed runners are all round less noticeable.

[Mordinvan]

Indeed, Five Eyes. I'm not sure why being blind isn't an autofail for *visual* tests. If you want to perceive aurally, fine, but then the camo doesn't do anything anyway.

Unless the person is really close or making a reasonable amount of noise I don't see that working well.

[Yerameyahu]

… Yes, if they're making unreasonable amount of noise, you may have trouble hearing them. Surprise? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)