Shapechange : Really +1 to all attributes by hit ? Options

[IKerensky]

Hi,

I had this Lynx Shaman playing last scenario and he/she turn into an overcast Lynx Form... nothing Edged nor tremendous but a plain 5 sucess on the roll...
This make for a very large, very strong and very stealthy Lynx....


I cant imagine what would have happened if he/she have used Edge.

So I am enquiring if there is no other limit than the spell power on the number of success ? is it really +1 to ALL attributes by success ?

[Lansdren]

Hi,

I had this Lynx Shaman playing last scenario and he/she turn into an overcast Lynx Form... nothing Edged nor tremendous but a plain 5 sucess on the roll...
This make for a very large, very strong and very stealthy Lynx....


I cant imagine what would have happened if he/she have used Edge.

So I am enquiring if there is no other limit than the spell power on the number of success ? is it really +1 to ALL attributes by success ?

Raw no I dont think there is. I'm unsure how this spell reacts with natural and augmented maximums though. Neither this spell nor the increase (attribute) spells say they are capped by the augmented maximums. In fact the increase attribute spell specifically says you can increase a already augmented attribute which to me inplys that it goes over the cap. A argument could be made that it is still capped by aumented maximums but your then going into thats the augmented maximum for every animal they can be.

[phlapjack77]

I think the +1/hit to Physical stats are for the critter form. So augmented maximums don't even apply (I think).

Other things might affect the new stats, but a characters augmented max shouldn't enter the picture.

[Ryu]

If someone close to their books could look the spell description up? I do believe it should be +1 to one attribute per hit.

[phlapjack77]

Shapechange (Physical)
Type: P • Range: LOS • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 2

Shapechange transforms a voluntary subject into a normal (non-paranormal)
critter, though the subject retains human consciousness. The
subject can only assume the form of a critter whose base Body rating
is 2 points greater or less than her own. Consult the Critters section,
p. 292, for the subject’s Physical attributes while in critter form. Add 1
to the critter’s Base attribute Ratings for every hit the caster generates.
Her Mental attributes remain unchanged.
This spell does not transform clothing and equipment. Magicians
in critter form can still cast spells, but cannot perform other tasks requiring
speech.

[Mäx]

I think the +1/hit to Physical stats are for the critter form. So augmented maximums don't even apply (I think).

Other things might affect the new stats, but a characters augmented max shouldn't enter the picture.

No not character, but everythink should have augmented maximums, it just makes sense.
But as writer didn't fell like providing any rules for that, its left to invidual game masters to rule as they see fit.

[Laodicea]

No not character, but everythink should have augmented maximums, it just makes sense.
But as writer didn't fell like providing any rules for that, its left to invidual game masters to rule as they see fit.

pretty much this.
Look at the great cat stats in SR4. There's no caps listed, also the damage is listed as 5P instead of str/2+x. Just lazy writing.

[Stormdrake]

See I used to take this spell all the time in 3rd edition but back then you could not augment the critters physical attributes like this. Pretty cool and gives me an idea for some corpspec security from hell, lol.

[Laodicea]

recent and relevant: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...853&hl=lion

[Stormdrake]

I reliese its not RAW but a version of this spell that allowed a caster to change into a paracritter with the same limitations of 2 body greater or lesser would be interesting. I would assume the drain for such a spell would be significantly higher.

[Lanlaorn]

I would imagine critters have augmented maximums at 1.5x their max stats just like everybody else. The question is, are those stats listed for them their maximums or just average. I'd assume due to their active lifestyles all animals are typically in excellent physical condition or dead at the hands of a predator, so then let's say that the average critter's physical stats are the maximum stats.

That still leaves Shapechange a lot of room in stats that the animal is proficient in, a Bear for example (from Running Wild) has strength 9 so you could raise it up to 14, but only 4 agility so more than 2 hits are wasted there.

Regarding whether or not Improved Attribute and Shapechange are limited to augmented maximums, why wouldn't they be? Everything is.

In fact the increase attribute spell specifically says you can increase a already augmented attribute which to me inplys that it goes over the cap.

That doesn't imply anything of the sort IMO. Look at it this way: I have 5 agility, and 2 Muscle Toners. My natural agility is 5, augmented agility is 7, and if I cast Increase Attribute that rules text just tells me I need a Force 7 spell, not a Force 5 spell. I'm still limited by the augmentation maximum, 9 for humans, and so would only be able to use Increase Attribute to raise it to 9 regardless of how many hits I roll.

[Ryu]

Shapechange (Physical)
Type: P • Range: LOS • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 2

Shapechange transforms a voluntary subject into a normal (non-paranormal)
critter, though the subject retains human consciousness. The
subject can only assume the form of a critter whose base Body rating
is 2 points greater or less than her own. Consult the Critters section,
p. 292, for the subject’s Physical attributes while in critter form. Add 1
to the critter’s Base attribute Ratings for every hit the caster generates.
Her Mental attributes remain unchanged.
This spell does not transform clothing and equipment. Magicians
in critter form can still cast spells, but cannot perform other tasks requiring
speech.

Thanks for the quote. A very powerful spell. Am I blind or are there no koala stats on pg. 95 of Running Wild, despite the index claiming so?

[Laodicea]

It's unclear what sort of member of the species the listed stats represent. Maybe its zoo animals. We really don't know. In the other thread, someone proposed that the listed stats were the average member of the species, so its attribute cap would be RAW stat + 3 * 1.5. Even this allows you to be rather strong as a force 5 or 6 bear/cat/raven. But a force 5 or 6 bear SHOULD be rather strong. This would give a great cat a body cap of 13/14. Which is pretty incredible, but within reason.

[Nixda]

I would imagine critters have augmented maximums at 1.5x their max stats just like everybody else. The question is, are those stats listed for them their maximums or just average. I'd assume due to their active lifestyles all animals are typically in excellent physical condition or dead at the hands of a predator, so then let's say that the average critter's physical stats are the maximum stats.

Well, a Gorilla has a STR of 5 in Running Wild, which seems low to me even as an average stat and quite wrong as a maximum considering unaugmented humans can be STR 6.

[Stormdrake]

I pointed this out to my mage player and she started laughing. She only has a body of two but this could give her potentially a couple more physical boxes to stave off death.