Group summoning of spirits, Non-RAW but interesting Options

[Stormdrake]

I am thinking of allowing group summoning of spirits into my game as a house rule. This would require a meta-magic, possibly a nested meta-magic two or three powers in. I would base it on ritual spell casting and require that the group be an initiate group. This would allow corporations/military/government agencies to have access to bigger magical guns than Shadowrunners. This would mirror the reality of corporations/military/government agencies being able to always pull out bigger mundane guns than the runners. Has anyone done this and if so can you tell me what you did?

[Laodicea]

I thought street magic covered this. I dont have my books on me at the moment, though.

[Doc Chase]

It's covered by ritual magic rules already established, yes.

[Stormdrake]

For some reason I thought group summoning of spirits was a big no-no according to RAW. I have my books with me at work (yea pdf's and zip drives!!!) Will have to pull it up and take a look.

[Stormdrake]

I just went back through Street Magic and the main book and I can not find any reference to group summoning. The main book actually reads as it is not possible. When you have access to a book could you post the page in Street magic where they talk about it?

[Mordinvan]

I just went back through Street Magic and the main book and I can not find any reference to group summoning. The main book actually reads as it is not possible. When you have access to a book could you post the page in Street magic where they talk about it?

I didn't see any reference to it being not possible, but I am also unaware of any reference to where they might say it is. Although modeling it after ritual casting would likely be a good start.

[Stormdrake]

Just using the ritual spell casting rules as a template could allow for some pretty major spirits to be walking around. Especially if you include the meta-magic of "great Ritual". Figuring a minimum of initiate rating 1 and a group of 5 summoners one could summon and bind a force 14 spirit with little trouble.

[Mordinvan]

Just using the ritual spell casting rules as a template could allow for some pretty major spirits to be walking around. Especially if you include the meta-magic of "great Ritual". Figuring a minimum of initiate rating 1 and a group of 5 summoners one could summon and bind a force 14 spirit with little trouble.

Sounds about right. Toss in a virgin sacrifice or two(blood magic) and you can make things get real stupid in a hurry.

[czarcasm]

Yea -- blood magic would be a necessity in order to prevent the mammoth drain from killing everyone.

[Mordinvan]

Yea -- blood magic would be a necessity in order to prevent the mammoth drain from killing everyone.

Unless there would be some way to have 'other' mages in the ritual who aren't helping to to the summoning/binding but are simply there to help soak the drain.
edit: maybe a metamagic or something where they get to lower the 'effective' force of the spirit for drain purposes based on the results of a magic+initiation grade test.

[CanRay]

Blood magic doesn't prevent drain. It just transfers it to someone else. Preferably someone that you don't like.

Like Joe in Accounting. Damn Joe, eating the last piece of cake at the Rodriguez Bar Mitzvah!

[Nifft]

Like Joe in Accounting. Damn Joe, eating the last piece of cake at the Rodriguez Bar Mitzvah!

You bastard. You knew Joe had an Addiction (minor) Cake.

[CanRay]

Still no excuse. To the sacrificial table with him!

...

Yes, I mean the table in Boardroom B.

[PBTHHHHT]

Still no excuse. To the sacrificial table with him!

...

Yes, I mean the table in Boardroom B.

Ok, ok, but really, you don't have to stab so hard like last time. I mean, the blood is easy enough to clean but the marks in the table. Constantly replacing the tables will eat into the budget.

[Stormdrake]

Lol, To much fun. Blood letting in the board room for real. Using the ritual spell casting rules I thought the drain was parcled out to the participents rather than each member having to soak the full amount?

[Lansdren]

Not to long ago someone did put up a house rule for ritual summoning.

I cant seem to find the thread but it wasnt bad from what I remember. Personally I would GM it as fluff during a run not give it to the players to actually do for balance reasons.

I can see a nice scene where they burst into the ritual and pick off a couple of the guys in the circle just as it reaches the peak of the summoning. With half the group down and out the backlash of drain taking out the last couple of guys and the one leading the ritual.

The smoke clears and then the team realise the spirit came through and is now uncontrolled. With a F15+ spirit on the rampage its going to take more then a call to the ghostbusters to sort this out

[Mordinvan]

Not to long ago someone did put up a house rule for ritual summoning.

I cant seem to find the thread but it wasnt bad from what I remember. Personally I would GM it as fluff during a run not give it to the players to actually do for balance reasons.

I can see a nice scene where they burst into the ritual and pick off a couple of the guys in the circle just as it reaches the peak of the summoning. With half the group down and out the backlash of drain taking out the last couple of guys and the one leading the ritual.

The smoke clears and then the team realise the spirit came through and is now uncontrolled. With a F15+ spirit on the rampage its going to take more then a call to the ghostbusters to sort this out

Odd, as most of the time when that happens I thought the spirit would just leave.

[CanRay]

Odd, as most of the time when that happens I thought the spirit would just leave.

Depends on the spirit...

Some like a bit of the good, old fashioned Ultraviolence just as much as the PCs do.

[LurkerOutThere]

The spirit can do as it pleases at that point and generally speaking the sort of folks that summon up massive spirits in back rooms that runners can shoot their way into at the apex of high rituals arn't summoning up Mr. Fluffkins the Force 15 spirit of chldren's dreams of Cotton Candy.

[Mordinvan]

The spirit can do as it pleases at that point and generally speaking the sort of folks that summon up massive spirits in back rooms that runners can shoot their way into at the apex of high rituals arn't summoning up Mr. Fluffkins the Force 15 spirit of chldren's dreams of Cotton Candy.

True, but given how so many people on dump shock figure force 15 spirits should want to kill the punny mortals who summoned them anyway, I can just see it showing up, looking around at all the dead mages, brushing the 'dust' off its hands, and saying 'my work here is done', and then leaving.

[LurkerOutThere]

I'm not saying that the spirit wanting to fight the runner/people should happen every time, merely that I can think of plausible reasons why combat might ensue with said ridiculously overpowered spirits.

[Mordinvan]

I'm not saying that the spirit wanting to fight the runner/people should happen every time, merely that I can think of plausible reasons why combat might ensue with said ridiculously overpowered spirits.

If its a beast, or guardian spirit of a rather 'hostile' tradition, then ya, but much of the time I'd figure it would just be inclined to leave.

[pbangarth]

An argument could be made that the standard Teamwork Test applies here.

Three other Magical activities are specifically described as being open to teamwork Tests: Ritual Spellcasting (which is different from Spellcasting in more than just the use of Teamwork), Counterspelling, and Ward manufacture. In all of these, the addition of teammates does not reduce any Drain that accrues, but merely adds dice to the primary actor's attempt. Also, the maximum Force of the action is still limited by the Magic Attribute of the primary, so teamwork in Summoning, if allowed, would likely not increase the Force of the spirit that could be Summoned.

Now, the presence of Teamwork in the description of these three actions could be used to support either the pro or the con argument. Either, "See, it can be used with Magic, so it's OK." or "See, it is specifically listed for those three but not Summoning, so it isn't allowed." The description on page 65, SR4A, places no limitations on what situations allow teamwork, basically leaving it up to the GM.

[Lansdren]

True, but given how so many people on dump shock figure force 15 spirits should want to kill the punny mortals who summoned them anyway, I can just see it showing up, looking around at all the dead mages, brushing the 'dust' off its hands, and saying 'my work here is done', and then leaving.

My thoughts on it (throwaway as they were when I posted the idea) was that if a group was summoning a big bad of huge power to do things for them odds are it wouldnt be A) Nice B) Willing to discuss the issues arrising from being brought (possibly dragged) from its own metaplane into our rather crappy realm. Worst case its some toxic / blood / shadow spirit from the back of beyond.

Its a bit horror movie I know but if you prefer you could always have the spirt look round and tell the runners how they have been used to try and stop the spirit coming into this world and doing some good. Thus making the runners tools for your games big bad / evil corp / Gang boss.

Options are open for all types of mayhem

[darthmord]

My thoughts on it (throwaway as they were when I posted the idea) was that if a group was summoning a big bad of huge power to do things for them odds are it wouldnt be A) Nice B) Willing to discuss the issues arrising from being brought (possibly dragged) from its own metaplane into our rather crappy realm. Worst case its some toxic / blood / shadow spirit from the back of beyond.

Its a bit horror movie I know but if you prefer you could always have the spirt look round and tell the runners how they have been used to try and stop the spirit coming into this world and doing some good. Thus making the runners tools for your games big bad / evil corp / Gang boss.

Options are open for all types of mayhem

Or you could have a particularly devious / malicious spirit simply turn toward the runners and tell "Hmm, you look like nice little playthings. Work for me or I kill you."

The bad part is, said spirit would be more than capable of doing so (especially since it took a ritual team to summon it). I would not want a boss that could drop in on me at any point and had the power to enforce his will upon me (in a magical manner).