Problem Player Options

[VillainsVision]

I have a problem player in my missions group who drop gas grenades ( what they are actually called is slipping my mind) with a airborne toxin that does 10 stun damage, he is a street sam, so he is fairly prepared for this, the problem is that he has dropped these grenades in both a bar full of gangers, and a club. I have awarded plenty of notoriety to the entire team for allowing him to do this , but by my count he has killed over 50 innocents.

Not sure what to do, or if i am handling this right, even by using all the pushing the envelope options in the mod the party is well put together so they take out all the opposition that i send at them, can i up the ante more and start sending squads of cops, gangers, even other Shadowrunners at him even if it is out side the scope of the mission for all the excess damage and killing he has done?

Thanks

[DrZaius]

When you say "kill" 50 innocents; does he drop the gas grenade, and then kill them? Because just stun damage should just knock them unconscious. Also, if someone went to a club and set off a grenade, you can bet there would be a public outcry to capture the murderer. Throw the kitchen sink at him.

-DrZaius

[VillainsVision]

He drops the gas grenade as i understand it , it constantly does 10 stun damage to all those within its range , 10 stun on an average dude would bleed over to physical, then they would take 10 more stun, and die.. when it drops normally 3 to 6 at a time..

I just wanted to make sure that with missions ( this is my first foray into missions, and new to SR for that matter, i have done other living campaigns before) i could leave the scope of the mission to do something like this, in a home game everything and their sister would be after this runner group, until they would need to bust out their back up charcters

[DrZaius]

I haven't run or played in a missions game, so I would defer to others who have to answer your question. However, I would rule as a GM that a "knockout gas" grenade wouldn't bleed into physical damage, just knock someone out.

-DrZaius

[Yerameyahu]

AFAIK, gas grenades don't inflect continuous attacks at their power. *Maybe* (MAYBE) 2 or 3 doses, depending in the ventilation.

[Bull]

It would only deal it's damage once. Stun damage is Stun damage, though, so it's possible someone with a low Will might take a point of physical from the STun Overflow... But it still won't kill them.

[Yerameyahu]

Aren't there rules for overdoses? I must have misread something. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Bull]

Not really. P 257, SR4A.

It's basically one of those "GM call" type of situations, and applies to drugs and toxins, not to stun gas.

Bull

[Yerameyahu]

Okay, thanks! I think stun gas is obviously a toxin, but yeah.

[LurkerOutThere]

He drops the gas grenade as i understand it , it constantly does 10 stun damage to all those within its range , 10 stun on an average dude would bleed over to physical, then they would take 10 more stun, and die.. when it drops normally 3 to 6 at a time..

This is not correct, effectively the gas grenade does 1 burst of 10 stun damage.

[Yerameyahu]

Incidentally, I've always wondered: when you buy a gas grenade, how many doses do you pay for? I mean, one capsule round has one full dose to pay for, right? If the gas grenade can do full dose to multiple people, it must have multiple doses in it, and you must have paid for them. Right?

[RobertB]

Actually, the wording under "Concentration" on p255 when talking about toxins is a pretty strong argument in favor of continual doses of gas doing more damage, and the "Exceeding the Condition Monitor" discussion on p163 is pretty clear on stun overflow to physical.

I've always been careful when using Neurostun (my toxin of choice) to get my targets clear once they've been rendered unconscious.

Robert (aka Spanner)

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, but only (as I said) '2 or *maybe* 3 doses' if you're in the gas for several minutes. Which is a long time.

Stun-to-Physical overflow should be on a toxin-by-toxin basis, and that means it's really just the GM's call. Too much of some knockouts certainly will kill you, while others would just leave you out longer.

[Wasabi]

Aren't there rules for overdoses? I must have misread something. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The_Dunner ruled that burstfire with toxin-laden Capsule Rounds staged the damage up so a short burst would deliver a toxin at +2 Power.
I know thats not a hard ruling on stacking grenades but its not a stretch to have multiple gas grenades stage the damage up rather than allowing extra resistance rolls.

Up to the GM at this point... two precedents to draw on.

[Bull]

God, I hate Gas/Chemical Grenades. Sucha pain in the ass. Combined with the less than useful or coherent drug rules in SR4, they're an even larger pain in my ass.

First off, unless the room is airtight or gas is being constantly pumped into it, it'll dissipate enough that you don't have to take a second dose.

Otherwise, it's GM call. A stun gas grenade in a bar isn't going to kill everyone in it. Strapping someone to a breathing mask and pumping it into them, then yeah, that will eventually do it.

Bull

[Chance359]

I remember a few years back when soviet special forces used a sleep agent to help pacify a theater full of hostages and terrorists. Alot of people didnt wake up.Read all about it.

Depending on ventilation any gas would linger, sinking to the floor where all the bodies are, replacing the oxygen

[Bull]

True. But then, the Russians managed to detonate a Nuclear Power Plant, something that is difficult to do even with poor safety conditions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) And up in Cleveland, we managed to set a freaking river on fire. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Just because it's possible doesn't mean it's normal.

THere are no clear rules to cover this, and is specifically written in as a GM's call. For a public Missions game (Convention, or Open Play at a Demo Team Firebase), I would say don;t mess around with optional stuff, and just rule it goes off once, and that's it. For a home game, it's GMs call.

Bull

[VillainsVision]

True. But then, the Russians managed to detonate a Nuclear Power Plant, something that is difficult to do even with poor safety conditions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) And up in Cleveland, we managed to set a freaking river on fire. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Just because it's possible doesn't mean it's normal.

THere are no clear rules to cover this, and is specifically written in as a GM's call. For a public Missions game (Convention, or Open Play at a Demo Team Firebase), I would say don;t mess around with optional stuff, and just rule it goes off once, and that's it. For a home game, it's GMs call.

Bull

I will rule it only goes off once, but he still drops at least three in quick succession to make sure he gets everyone, personally I could care less if he kills or stuns an entire room of nobodies, it the indiscriminate use of force that I am not sure how to punish with in the realms of missions

Thanks for your help guys

[Aaron]

I have a problem player in my missions group who drop gas grenades ( what they are actually called is slipping my mind) with a airborne toxin that does 10 stun damage, he is a street sam, so he is fairly prepared for this, the problem is that he has dropped these grenades in both a bar full of gangers, and a club. I have awarded plenty of notoriety to the entire team for allowing him to do this , but by my count he has killed over 50 innocents.

I think you've already solved your own problem, there. You've dumped wads of Notoriety on them, yes? What's their Public Awareness looking like? Nice and high? Enough for them to be hunted by law enforcement a la Waco? Or tracked down as terrorists?

If so, my suggestion (if you're looking for advice) is to have the Powers That Be track the team until they're in an uninhabited area, then send some drones or a t-bird or two to carpet-bomb the place.

If you don't want to be that evil (and I don't blame you; I wouldn't be that evil without a lot of in-character warnings), I'd say the next time the team is somewhere they can be trapped, surround them with troops. Then have somebody in command outside call in, "We don't want all of you, we just want [runner with the highest Notoriety]. We prefer not to take out the rest of you to get him/her, but we're not afraid to do so if that's what it comes to."

If you want to be evil with plausible deniability, pass a note (or otherwise speak privately) to one of the players, in character. Tell them that they've been contacted by someone who wants [runner with the highest Notoriety] in custody, and they're willing to pay a lot for it to happen. Then let your PCs deal with the problem.

Hope that helps.

EDIT: By my reading, the strict RAW strongly implies that grenades are resolved individually, as an environmental effect rather than a direct attack. Sucks if you're not prepared for it, of course. Is this for a strictly Missions-based game?

[Wasabi]

Due to their high Public Awareness reduce their pay for missions because they just aren't discrete enough. After all, their rep is that they get caught doing obnoxious things so the Johnson is either going to hire them for cheap or get some REAL runners who can be covert... which of course costs more. I mean, why pay THOSE rates to an indiscreet team when for the same nuyen you could get pro's?

[LurkerOutThere]

Due to their high Public Awareness reduce their pay for missions because they just aren't discrete enough. After all, their rep is that they get caught doing obnoxious things so the Johnson is either going to hire them for cheap or get some REAL runners who can be covert... which of course costs more. I mean, why pay THOSE rates to an indiscreet team when for the same nuyen you could get pro's?

You CANNOT do this in missions btw. It's not your call to make.

Sorry if i get beaten up on killing a theoretical PC for mind controlling their J i think there's a line to be drawn here. And to be honest, pay rates in missions are already the saddest joke in all the land.

[Wasabi]

Yeah, I thought about that after I posted it. File it under 'In home games you can do whatever you want' I 'reckon.

[Mesh]

Aaron had some very good suggestions. Personally, I like to feed players like that a taste of their own medicine. Have the Johnson at the next meet use the same gas on the whole runner team. Add in as much narco-ject or stunballs as needed. When they wake up, bad-samurai-gas-player is gone, and the Johnson proceeds with negotiations for the next Mission as if nothing happened. Tell the now taken care of player to roll up a new character, one who's not a d-wad.

Mesh

[LurkerOutThere]

Aarons solution is also outside of missions, just saying.

Honestly the OP's basic problem is steming from a misunderstanding of the grenade rules, which are already somewhat slip shod in the case of gas grenades. But ultimately the character in question is not likely to be killing whole rooms full of people..

Further I want to get a personal gripe off my chest. Please do not put your own personal morality on the J's in missions or frankly Shadowrun period. It's bad story telling and inconsistent with the world view.. These are people who regularly hire professional criminals to do deniable operations some of which likely involve potentially killing a whole bunch of people. I do not think they would have nearly the problem you ascribe to them. I would personally find it much more reasonable to go slightly out of line and have the J say "I need minimal noise on this, zero out collateral damage." But honestly outside of their mission parameters and a basic expectation of secrecy and ability to deny the teams actions I really doubt your average J gives a frag how the job actually gets done. Individual J's like individual people may vary, but given the nature of the world I can't see most caring.

The trick to making morality work in SR is to make the players want to buy into it, not randomly killt hem when they step out of line.

[Aaron]

Aarons solution is also outside of missions, just saying.

Only for convention and other public games. If it's a private table that uses Missions adventures, it's fair game (no pun intended).

Further I want to get a personal gripe off my chest. Please do not put your own personal morality on the J's in missions or frankly Shadowrun period. It's bad story telling and inconsistent with the world view.

I believe that frankly Shadowrun period states that killing innocents has negative consequences. On or around p. 265, I think. I'm not saying you're wrong or right, just that the hymnal seems to imply a certain moral slant in and of itself, rather than having one GM's personal morality projected onto it.