Questions on SINs Options

[Lachdanan]

Really what are they, physically. I'm having a hard time conceptualizing what they are. Are they like an RFID'd card? Something on your Comlink? Something implanted in to you? Does the SIN database contain fingerprints? DNA? Retinal Scans? Pictures?

I know they can be scanned, but can you ever have it not on you?

When you have a fake one have you stolen someone's identity either living or dead? Or did someone along the path have a government contact who created a person who doesn't really exist?

[Lanlaorn]

A SIN is like a social security number. It's a database entry and while there may be cards and whatever issued, the number is the only important aspect.

Does the SIN database contain fingerprints? DNA? Retinal Scans? Pictures?

Yes.

Also apparently the number itself is a clever algorithm that incorporates your DOB and some other data, so just by knowing the number, not even checking a database, tells a lot about you.

[Doc Chase]

It's a number that corresponds to a file in a federal database. Nations have them, corporations have them, and possibly even free cities have them. The SIN databases communicate with one another as the identification of a citizen of any nation or corporation is mutually important. I wouldn't be surprised if it was mandated by the Corporate Court and the United Nations as an extension.


The following is conjecture, but it's a fairly logical path to follow.

Attempting to create a SIN involves a mountain of work unless you are an employee of the SIN office in which case you have scripts and algorithms doing the work for you, or you are part of a syndicate, who has large teams of hackers creating fakes and stealing ID's to make into better fakes.

A lot of SINners have died since its inception. Like the SSN's of today, they can be stolen and altered. Having a contact within the SIN office can provide better fakes, but if you don't need something that can pass for 100% real, then you can get a low-level SIN that registers with your commlink (so you always have it) and is verified by your biometric data that can get you into clubs and bars.

Think of a Rating 1 SIN as a fake ID to get you into a bar when you aren't 21. Orks love these, because it means they can start drinking before they're middle aged. It gets you into the liquor store, and the bar.

A Rating 2 may go a bit further. It can get you bus tickets.

A Rating 3 can get you through checkpoints. Out of the Z and into the E. I imagine a Rating 3 can get you as far as a C-rated zone, subway passes and commuter flights. Could carry a sidearm or slightly illegal cyberware without much hassle - the license looks legal! Starting to get serious here. You're looking at a team of guys, or someone with an in at the SIN office.

A Rating 4 can get you into and out of the ACHE without worry, walk around B/A zones without no problems, and could carry decent cyber - the good dermal plating, or basic Wired - or a SMG. Licenced security goon. The specialized stuff that's the best the minors can offer, and the midrange of what the good syndicates can do.

A Rating 5 is good just about anywhere. I wouldn't try it at a federal building, but you're going to be looking good on scanners. Carry betaware and the scanners won't blink. The culmination of weeks of work for a forgery team, and definitely not an identity you want to throw away if you can't help it.

A Rating 6 is good for the government buildings. Carry anything that isn't outright military, and even then you might get away with it if you've got the right security license. It may as well be real - maybe your contact found a SIN that was lost during the Second Crash, and the system doesn't know any better. If you've had this one flagged, you have screwed up.

[Heath Robinson]

I assume you are asking about SINs as they exist in SR4.

SINless Co nsequences
If a SINless person is arrested, several things can happen. It is not uncommon for the SINless to be horribly abused, locked away, or “disappeared,” as they have no rights to speak of and no datatrail to even prove they exist. Most SINless arrestees, however, are issued a “criminal SIN”— which they are then stuck with for the rest of their lives. That SIN is now archived in multiple law-enforcement databases and indexed with their photograph, biometric prints, DNA records, and tissue sample.

Who are you?: I.D. in the wireless world
Your System Identification Number is a unique identifier issued to you at birth or any time you change national or corporate citizenship. This identifier (which is not just alpha-numeric) contains basic information, such as your birthdate, birthplace, and other data, encoded within the identifier. If issued at birth, your SIN will be linked to basic biometric data, such as a DNA sample, retinal scan, and finger prints. As you age, additional biometrics such as voice patterns, facial patterns, and hand measurements can be added.
...

Your ID contains all the data necessary to interact with other citizens, government/corporate agencies, and physical or online retailers. Although every issuing country/corp embeds different data on a citizen’s ID, they generally contain your name, age, metatype, a physical description, a current photo, licenses, and are frequently linked to your bank account. Many countries also require IDs to contain your status if you are Awakened or a technomancer along with registries of any cyber- or bioware you have.

Your SIN is linked to biometric data and proves you are a citizen. Your ID is who you are. Together, they allow you to exist in today’s world.

As to what form SIN and other forms of ID take:

Commlinks, Credsticks, and ID
It used to be that one’s SIN and other forms of identification were all stored on credsticks, pen-sized tubes that served simultaneously as ID and credit card. Since the Matrix went wireless, however, all of this information was transferred to the commlink, and credsticks only survive as certified but relatively anonymous means of payment. In addition, all of a person’s credentials and necessary personal data (licenses, credit history, health insurance, cred accounts, etc.) are stored in encrypted form on her commlink (with a default Encryption rating of 5).

I hope that was sufficient.

[Whiskey]

Hmmmm..... Which means it's possible to reverse engineer it too and use it in a social attack. Call someone up, and when they ask you to prove who you are... hey, you already got something to work with, right there. DoB, Age, Where he/she were born... gender and race I imagine are in there as well. that might make it a bit harder to just grab any ol' SIN off of the airwaves and use it as your own.

LoneStar: Your a 34 years old male troll from the barrens but your SIN is of a female, salish and ... 107 years old. Sir, step out of the car please...

That's when you know your ID guy hates you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Doc Chase]

Well sure. Just as the infodump that Heath provided shows, crack the encryption and you've got someone's identity.

However, you can hack the commlink's SIN registry to change those details. The higher the rating, the farther back the hack is going to go.

[D2F]

That's when you know your ID guy hates you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Or he thinks that "ID" stand for "Intelligent Design" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Lachdanan]

Thanks for the replys. Another question. Lets say you left evidence at a crime scene; hair, fingerprints, etc..... Now lets say you have a true identity SIN and several fake SINS. What would a search against the evidence bring back?

Are fake SINs really only useful if you have no true registered identity?

This post has been edited by Lachdanan: Jul 16 2010, 07:44 PM

[sabs]

Well sure. Just as the infodump that Heath provided shows, crack the encryption and you've got someone's identity.

However, you can hack the commlink's SIN registry to change those details. The higher the rating, the farther back the hack is going to go.

See that makes no sense. Your info isn't on your commlink.
Your System Identification Number is on your commlink.
All the INFO is on public accessable Nodes depending on where your SiN is from.

Officer Jones pulls you over.
1) He asks you for your SiN and you provide it (your commlink, or car provides it, or you actually tell him, how strange)
2) Using that information he hits the UCAS SiN database and pulls up your information. Which he then compares to you.

There should be nothing on your commlink other than the number itself.

Identify Theft is nearly impossible, because your picture,your dna, your retinal scans are part of your information.
I wish to borrow money from a bank. They have scanners that check your retina, and a hair sample against the database to make sure you are you.

Fake SiN's require actually hacking into the database, and into the backups. This is nearly impossible because the public database is a read-only copy that gets overwritten every X days. You have to hack the actual internal database for UCAs, or CAS, or MCT, or Renraku.

[Doc Chase]

See that makes no sense. Your info isn't on your commlink.
Your System Identification Number is on your commlink.
All the INFO is on public accessable Nodes depending on where your SiN is from.

Officer Jones pulls you over.
1) He asks you for your SiN and you provide it (your commlink, or car provides it, or you actually tell him, how strange)
2) Using that information he hits the UCAS SiN database and pulls up your information. Which he then compares to you.

There should be nothing on your commlink other than the number itself.

Identify Theft is nearly impossible, because your picture,your dna, your retinal scans are part of your information.
I wish to borrow money from a bank. They have scanners that check your retina, and a hair sample against the database to make sure you are you.

Fake SiN's require actually hacking into the database, and into the backups. This is nearly impossible because the public database is a read-only copy that gets overwritten every X days. You have to hack the actual internal database for UCAs, or CAS, or MCT, or Renraku.

I calls shennanigans on your interpretation. Heath's infodump again:

QUOTE (Page 266 @ BBB)
Commlinks, Credsticks, and ID
It used to be that one’s SIN and other forms of identification were all stored on credsticks, pen-sized tubes that served simultaneously as ID and credit card. Since the Matrix went wireless, however, all of this information was transferred to the commlink, and credsticks only survive as certified but relatively anonymous means of payment. In addition, all of a person’s credentials and necessary personal data (licenses, credit history, health insurance, cred accounts, etc.) are stored in encrypted form on her commlink (with a default Encryption rating of 5).

The basics of the SIN are going to be stored on the commlink. It's not a far cry to assume that there's redundancy that can but not neccesarily will be checked since the commlink's got it.

[sabs]

I call Shenaningans on the RAW (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
the RAW makes /no sense/

Given the speed of information on the matrix. There is /no/ reason to store the information on a commlink, and MANY reasons not to.

Even today your 'ID' doesn't mean anything. It's a piece of plastic that lets officers check the database. Your driver's license doesn't hold anything, it's your driving record in the Police/Department of Transportation Databases that holds all the information.

The RAW in this case makes 0 sense.

[Whiskey]

May favorite SIN in the hands of my face guy was priceless. Why?

All it ever kicked back for info was "classified, access denied."

Did it actually exist? Nope... hacker got into the cop's car and intercepted the SIN request. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But man... that and a few good rolls, and we had that poor schmuck thinking we had to off him 'cause he saw my face now. We left him alive and expecting a visit from some agents for a debriefing...

GM casually mentioned there were easier ways to avoid a speeding ticket.

Bottom line: Sin's are useless if you can get into the reader.

This post has been edited by Whiskey: Jul 16 2010, 07:58 PM

[D2F]

The RAW in this case makes 0 sense.

Neither does magic. The key point here is "suspension of disbelief" (ebven though sometimes that is really hard in SR). If the fluff says that's the way it is in SR, then that's the way it is in SR, even if that makes no sense.

[Yerameyahu]

Actually, your Driver's License obviously has info. Photo, height/weight, eye color, age, plus that 2D barcode, etc.

[hobgoblin]

whats interesting is that BBB makes mention of a verification system, but, unless i am going blind in my old age, said system is not described anywhere. But, iirc, there was such a system described in earlier editions. And there it talked about querying various databases to see how much they match up to details provided by the person trying to use the SIN.

[Doc Chase]

Actually, your Driver's License obviously has info. Photo, height/weight, eye color, age, plus that 2D barcode, etc.

As does your passport, or Federal ID should you not be old enough for a DL. Why waste the time constantly accessing the main database when you can have the information there on the commlink?

[Lachdanan]

I would think it would be possible to have information stored in the SIN itself. If it's a pretty long number, logically in a computer science/math sense you could run it though a world wide known hashing algorithm and the results would spit out relevant data about you.

[sabs]

Actually, your Driver's License obviously has info. Photo, height/weight, eye color, age, plus that 2D barcode, etc.

Sure, but it's basically non-authoritative. And given how easy it is to spoof commlinks, no authority is going to accept your info from your commlink.

The 2d barcode is new, and is a copy of the info that's visible to the human eye on the ID itself.

It's just extremely inefficient and insecure way of doing things.
There may well be a copy of your basic licensing/sin information downloaded to your commlink when you purchase it. But it's not the Authoritative source for such information.

[Doc Chase]

Sure, but it's basically non-authoritative. And given how easy it is to spoof commlinks, no authority is going to accept your info from your commlink.

The 2d barcode is new, and is a copy of the info that's visible to the human eye on the ID itself.

It's just extremely inefficient and insecure way of doing things.
There may well be a copy of your basic licensing/sin information downloaded to your commlink when you purchase it. But it's not the Authoritative source for such information.

Whaaaa? It's authoritative enough to easily verify physical statistics. If my ID said I was a 3'1" Amerind woman with purple hair, they're going to call it into question, certainly. But it doesn't - it mirrors my physical information at the date of issue.

Why omit it from a commlink when it's been the accepted way of doing things for so long? Recall how long it takes a bureaucracy to change. Just because the medium has altered does not mean the procedure has.

[Pepsi Jedi]

As does your passport, or Federal ID should you not be old enough for a DL. Why waste the time constantly accessing the main database when you can have the information there on the commlink?

Because accessing the database via the wireless matrix takes no time. No 'real' time that is. It's not like you have to load it up.

They're right. The SIN you carry on your commlink very likely is the System Identification NUMBER. The number is transmitted via the reader to the database the database(( secure as it's governmental/criminal or corp)) Sends the information.

As pointed out by others your DLmight have how tall you are and stuff but it doesn't have your entire criminal record. the cop takes your ID back to the car and punches in your DL number to get all that from the police database. In SR, the 'Reader" is in the cop's Comlink and probably transmits real time info directly to his cop issued cybereyes via AR.

[Yerameyahu]

I don't think anyone's saying your commlink has your complete SIN record. But that's not the same as *nothing*. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well I guess the difference is how much then.

Age/ Metatype/ Weight/ Height/ Country or corp that issued the SIN/ Address of residency.

Sure.

Biometric data. DNA, Credit report, criminal history? They're probably querying the Country or Corp server for that info.

[Doc Chase]

I don't think anyone's saying your commlink has your complete SIN record. But that's not the same as *nothing*. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yes. I'm not sure why criminal records or a complete purchasing history are being assumed to be the basics as I've reiterated the commlink would have several times, but there you are.

Let's go back to the rating of fake SIN's. Commlink-only is basically a rating 1 or 2. It's enough for someone to verify age so you can buy booze. It's an out-of-state driver's license off an inkjet printer.

[Johnny B. Good]

Sin Rating Whatnots

I do not think this is a very accurate representation of how well SINS work. EVERYTHING requires SIN verification, from busses to guns to clubs. Many of these are equipped with SIN verification equipment. The way verifying a SIN works is the verifier rolls its rating against the rating of the SIN. So if you're going to ride a bus (R2 verifier) and you use your shiny new rating 4 SIN, the bus will roll two dice and you will roll four. It's very possible that that shiny new 8,000 nuyen sin will get burned on everyday activities.

I actually did burn my 8,000 Nuyen SIN right out of the gate, trying to tail a wageslave onto a goddamn bus. I got stopped by the bus driver, and the wageslave rode off while I stood outside and scowled.

That being said, I think this system is dumb. I like Doc Chase's system better (Maybe with a little modding to include dicerolls of some sort).

Another question: What prevents the national SIN registry from finding/flagging entries with identical biometric data? Common sense tells me that they would have a system to prevent that.

Also, how much of YOUR biometric data would your average fake SIN include?

[sabs]

I actually suspect it is /nothing/ except the number itself.
Cops, Corps, Shop Owners, Legal Brothels all have effectively real time access to all your information on their databases, and the public SiN database.

A loan officer at a bank, assuming you even see him in person, is going to send a request to your commlink for your SiN which it will respond with and then turn around access the Public SiN database to make sure you're not a criminal, and to make sure you are you, while at the sametime accessing their internal information on you.

You go to pay for something in a shop, using the ARO interface. You send your SiN, and the shop checks it against the public database, checks your biometrics, does a credit check, and then authorizes the sale.

Given how intergral to modern life the SiN is, there's no way anyone would accept the information stored on a $100 commlink, you picked up at radioshack that your average 12 year old could hack.