Stick and Shock - rehash, More effective than bullets, all the time? Options

[Daylen]

There is no reference. If you read the rest of the sentence, I was musing over a potential house ruling; nothing more.

Oops. guess I'm too used to personal musings being inserted as fact.

[Daylen]

You guys can call it railroading if you like, and I know there's always the 'if they can do it, so can you' crowd, but I'm trying to maintain statistical balance, so the game doesn't turn into another arms-race.

You can debate the merits as you see fit. As interesting as that debate is, I'm here to learn how people are interpreting RAW.

If it works for your group, go for it. I know some players REALLY like being railroaded.

I'm generally of the mind that if I can buy something lethal, more lethal and highly destructive; why have harsh rules to keep players from using nonlethal arms? I've always done SnS as any other ammo/arms.

[MikeKozar]

Railroad GMs

It's sort of like the Phaser in Star Trek (or the Zat'ni'katel, if you prefer) - the Phaser renders normal sidearms wildly obsolete. You can reliably stop any attacker with a Phaser, kill them if you must, but if you should accidentally zap a civilian or a team member, no harm, no foul. It's hard to imagine any other weapon really gaining ground relative to that. Furthermore, consider that in Shadowrun, SnS has a fair chance to sink a drone, and it is cheap and legal...why wouldn't it be overused?

Oooooo...evil thought. Anybody remember in Diamond Age, where the thug with the cybergun is briefly surprised to find out that his weapon deploys nano-tags with his serial number stamped on them?

...on the other hand, why would the cops bother with SnS users when most guys just go full-auto with regular ammo and mow down the opposition? Hell, stick-n-shock is genteel compared to that.

It could generate a distinctive pulse of static/emi that systems might recognise...but again, sensors that detect gunfire are more common and more useful.

I dunno, SnS is just a better round against things that can be stunned.

[Daylen]

Well is there a problem with the players not using deadly rounds anymore and only using SnS? Last I remember its expensive so players are going to conserve shots or spend alot of their cash on ammo. Also, if they are leaving everyone alive they encounter that leaves things open for annoying recurring baddies. Don't forget it also means there are witnesses to their deeds.

Me I'll stick to ExEx and APDS to make sure there are no witnesses and fewer recurring baddies.

[Yerameyahu]

It *is* expensive. But you can always murder a KO'd/tazed enemy. Duh. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Cheshyr]

My biggest concern isn't the damage, so much as the 'leaves them helpless for x number of Combat Rounds'. A single hit from this bullet will effectively kill anyone without electrical resistance, or a large body score, because you can always shoot them again sometime in the next 12 seconds while they're lying there drooling. It really should replace all ammo at this point, since nothing else is remotely as effective.

It's usefulness does wonders for me as a GM. I only need to know the rules for an Ares Alpha, SnS ammo, and NonConductive armor! Most other gear is obsolete! Turns out I didn't need to buy Arsenal!

[Yerameyahu]

Right. And then you add strong stun and half (weaker) Impact armor.

[Cheshyr]

So the short version is, there's no hidden loophole somewhere that makes this balanced. According to RAW, it really is 6S(e) + net hits, standard burst rules, half impact armor, disoriented (-2 dice pool) for 2 + net hits combat rounds, and a chance to be incapacitated to 2 + net hits combat rounds.

Below is a quick table, for reference:

CODE

Name      Avail   ¥/bullet      DV       AP      disorient   incapac   drone lethal   spirit lethal
Regular    2R        2          0        0          no         no          no              no
SnS        5R        8       +2 to -3   -half I     yes        yes         yes             yes
Ex-Ex      12F       10         +1      -1 B        no         no          no              no
APDS       16F       7          0       -4 B        no         no          yes             yes

[Cheshyr]

I'm considering making the ammo highly regulated, and serialized... Like those new Tazer Shotgun rounds. Each bullet has a couple of serial numbers stashed in various places, and every bullet sold is tracked to a distributor.

Mind giving a reference for this? I've never heard or found any indication that TI is doing anything like being picky about who buys the ammo, keeping more than just normal documents on purchasers or serializing ammo.

There is no reference. If you read the rest of the sentence, I was musing over a potential house ruling; nothing more.

Oops. guess I'm too used to personal musings being inserted as fact.

That said, there have been pushes to add serialization to bullets and taser products , some quite recent, and some hve already been in effect for years.

Arizona State Law:
http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/48leg/2r/bills/hb2833p.pdf

Taser Anti-Felon ID System and Blog:
http://www.taser.com/Pages/consumer_overview.aspx
http://www.taser.com/products/security/Pages/TASERC2SIK.aspx (under benefits tab, responsible section)
http://blog.taser.com/2010/03/jermaine-jac...nd-stun-device/

So it's not a stretch to think an advanced electronic ammunition would have serialization 60 years from now, in a distopian future, where corps monitor and control everything. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Lanlaorn]

I'm not sure how much it would help investigators to learn that the ammo used was part of a shipment that disappeared 6 months ago (i.e. your players will just make sure to buy ammo from their fixer instead of Weapons World).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

There is no reference. If you read the rest of the sentence, I was musing over a potential house ruling; nothing more.

You guys can call it railroading if you like, and I know there's always the 'if they can do it, so can you' crowd, but I'm trying to maintain statistical balance, so the game doesn't turn into another arms-race.

You can debate the merits as you see fit. As interesting as that debate is, I'm here to learn how people are interpreting RAW.

Okay... Easy...

We use the Ammo RAW...
1. 6(s)e, increasing Damage with Net Hits... This upgrades damage from small arms (generally) and downgrades it for larger weapons...
2. Narrow Bursts increase Damage by +1 per Additional Bullet, as Normal (+2, +5, +9, +11, +14)
3. Secondary Effect enforced
4. IS an elemental Effect for the purposes of 1/2 ITNW, so it is an Awesome Spirit Ammo Choice

There it is... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Traul]

I'm not sure how much it would help investigators to learn that the ammo used was part of a shipment that disappeared 6 months ago (i.e. your players will just make sure to buy ammo from their fixer instead of Weapons World).

It helps to link cases together, and you'd better hope they do not catch anybody else who has been meddling with that ammo.

"OK, so ammunition matching yours has been found here, here, and there. Now it's your choice: either you fall for all of those, or you tell us who you bought the bullets from..."

[Daylen]

Mind giving a reference for this? I've never heard or found any indication that TI is doing anything like being picky about who buys the ammo, keeping more than just normal documents on purchasers or serializing ammo.

There is no reference. If you read the rest of the sentence, I was musing over a potential house ruling; nothing more.
Oops. guess I'm too used to personal musings being inserted as fact.


That said, there have been pushes to add serialization to bullets and taser products , some quite recent, and some hve already been in effect for years.

Arizona State Law:
http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/48leg/2r/bills/hb2833p.pdf

Taser Anti-Felon ID System and Blog:
http://www.taser.com/Pages/consumer_overview.aspx
http://www.taser.com/products/security/Pages/TASERC2SIK.aspx (under benefits tab, responsible section)
http://blog.taser.com/2010/03/jermaine-jac...nd-stun-device/

So it's not a stretch to think an advanced electronic ammunition would have serialization 60 years from now, in a distopian future, where corps monitor and control everything. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Oh yes. especially since RAW has all firearms needing permits. I was just after a reference especially if it was about Taser. Thanks for the links. I know I'll be staying away from such a big brother company.

[Yerameyahu]

I'd be more concerned that their non-lethal products are killing people, but that's just me.

[Traul]

I know I'll be staying away from such a big brother company.

For your information: Taser France is currently under investigation for spying on a leftist leader, including digging through his bank accounts.

[Cheshyr]

Oh yes. especially since RAW has all firearms needing permits. I was just after a reference especially if it was about Taser. Thanks for the links. I know I'll be staying away from such a big brother company.

All firearms in RAW have an 'R' rating, which I have chosen to interpret to mean you need a permit if you want security to let you carry in public. We all know effective mandatory permits are, in game and in real life.

Okay... Easy...

We use the Ammo RAW...
1. 6(s)e, increasing Damage with Net Hits... This upgrades damage from small arms (generally) and downgrades it for larger weapons...
2. Narrow Bursts increase Damage by +1 per Additional Bullet, as Normal (+2, +5, +9, +11, +14)
3. Secondary Effect enforced
4. IS an elemental Effect for the purposes of 1/2 ITNW, so it is an Awesome Spirit Ammo Choice

There it is... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Thanks, Tymeaus. This was what I wanted to verify.

-----

I fear I'm going to have to house rule this after all. A light semi-automatic pistol in the hands of a competent dual-wielder, firing at an average rent a cop, can take his average damage per IP from 2DV to 16DV, just by switching to SnS. That doesn't take into account all the secondary effects of electrical damage, which means that a single bullet can take a person out of a fight, consistently. I can't think of a single runner who wouldn't spend the extra 6 nuyen per bullet, for such drastic results.

Thanks for the feedback guys.

[Daylen]

All firearms in RAW have an 'R' rating, which I have chosen to interpret to mean you need a permit if you want security to let you carry in public.

Somehow CCW permits don't seem harsh enough for SR, at least to me. I always figured since its dystopian the permits would be like the system in one of the modern day totalitarian states like Massachusetts, or NY or the city of Chicago.

We all know effective mandatory permits are, in game and in real life.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding here, but I don't know of any effective mandatory permits in RL. Well at least not effective at their stated purpose.

[Yerameyahu]

That was a sarcastic statement, he forgot the 'how' in there.

[MikeKozar]

I fear I'm going to have to house rule this after all. A light semi-automatic pistol in the hands of a competent dual-wielder, firing at an average rent a cop, can take his average damage per IP from 2DV to 16DV, just by switching to SnS. That doesn't take into account all the secondary effects of electrical damage, which means that a single bullet can take a person out of a fight, consistently. I can't think of a single runner who wouldn't spend the extra 6 nuyen per bullet, for such drastic results.

Thanks for the feedback guys.

A few balancing things on your hypothetical dual-wielder:

First, it's a -2 penalty for each additional target. Second, dual-wield prevents you from using Smartlink/Laser scope. Third, per RAW, there is no reduction in cumulative recoil for using two weapons. (All from SR4A, pg. 150, Attacker using a Second Firearm)

That means that, assuming a pool of 12, no significant range factors, and Ambidexterous:

Shot 1, Target A, Mainhand: Pool of 6
Shot 2, Target B, Offhand: Pool of 3 [-2, multiple targets, -1, cumulative recoil]
Shot 3, Target C, Mainhand: Pool of 0 [-4, multiple targets, -2, cumulative recoil]
Shot 4, Target D, Offhand: Pool of 0(-3) [-6, multiple targets, -3, cumulative recoil]

Now, if each pistol had 2 points of recoil compensation (no idea how I'll code *that* in) then it seems fair to remove the recoil penalties from the above, giving us pools of 6, 4, 2, and 0. Still not super pools, though. It gets better if you assume a double-tap on two hostiles: 6, 4, 4, 4, with a probable one hit on each.

_ _ _ _

As to SnS being game-breaking, remember that not all enemies go down from Stun damage - Pain Editors and some chems will let you keep fighting. Mechanicals won't take any damage at all.

Secondary effects are where it gets fiddly. Unless I misunderstand, humans first get a chance to soak the damage, per normal. If they take electric damage, it gives them a -2 penalty and they have to beat 3 on a soak roll to stay on their feet. Anybody packing Bod 4 and 12 Impact Armor should usually make that roll.

Mechanicals will always have to roll to resist, but their threshold is net hits, and they get to roll body+armor on it. Even if we assume that is subject to the half-armor rules, lots of mechanicals have enough soak to reliably shake off those hits.

[Cheshyr]

Somehow CCW permits don't seem harsh enough for SR, at least to me. I always figured since its dystopian the permits would be like the system in one of the modern day totalitarian states like Massachusetts, or NY or the city of Chicago.

The license system in SR is really very broken. I've already house-ruled a ton of that stuff (with some help), to make it both playable and entertaining, without being the massive paperwork overhead it is now. In the end, it only really matters if someone bothers to check it.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding here, but I don't know of any effective mandatory permits in RL. Well at least not effective at their stated purpose.

You're understanding perfectly... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mäx]

I fear I'm going to have to house rule this after all. A light semi-automatic pistol in the hands of a competent dual-wielder, firing at an average rent a cop, can take his average damage per IP from 2DV to 16DV, just by switching to SnS. That doesn't take into account all the secondary effects of electrical damage, which means that a single bullet can take a person out of a fight, consistently. I can't think of a single runner who wouldn't spend the extra 6 nuyen per bullet, for such drastic results.

Care to explain your damage calculations.

Also i cant understand how you claim S&S being drone letheal over other ammo types, when it cant ever make any damage to drones.

[Cheshyr]

Care to explain your damage calculations.

Also i cant understand how you claim S&S being drone letheal over other ammo types, when it cant ever make any damage to drones.

It's late, so I'll post a link to a spreadsheet tomorrow. I'll admit that it's a bit simplified, but it should at least point out the scaling difference, especially with small arms.

Electrical Damage has the chance to disable a drone when it hits, even if it's only for a minimal amount of damage. No, I haven't worked out the minutia of that yet; it's yet another side-benefit of switching to this type of round.

My definition of 'lethal' may be too broad here, but when a single bullet can take someone out of a fight for 3+ Combat Rounds, I tend to think of it as lethal. Being completely helpless while your enemy can continue to assault you for at least 3 Rounds (2 + net hits minimum, 1 net hit required for it to stick) is generally lethal in the end.

This part of the discussion is getting into detailed mechanics which I think have been hammered on a million times on this forum, and I'm hesitant to start a discussion that'll likely turn into another war, since it's likely going to come down to how lethal people prefer their game. I'll start a new thread, since I've already got the answer I was looking for from this one.

[Mäx]

My definition of 'lethal' may be too broad here, but when a single bullet can take someone out of a fight for 3+ Combat Rounds, I tend to think of it as lethal. Being completely helpless while your enemy can continue to assault you for at least 3 Rounds (2 + net hits minimum, 1 net hit required for it to stick) is generally lethal in the end.

But the think is even the professional rating 2 corp sec grunts have enought dice to pass that test every time on avarage as do all the really dangerous drones.

[Cheshyr]

But the think is even the professional rating 2 corp sec grunts have enought dice to pass that test every time on avarage as do all the really dangerous drones.

I'm sure you're right. As I said, I haven't worked out this minutia yet. The point being that this is yet another perk to switching to this type of round. The benefit list is getting exceptionally long for a 5R 8 nuyen bullet.

[KarmaInferno]

Have you ever used a Vindicator with Gel Rounds? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I have, um, accidentally killed an NPC with a full auto burst from a drum equipped Enfield AS-7 shotgun packing gel rounds.

<.<




-karma