[X] My Assistant

[Wasabi]

When stun weapons "replacine their damage code" is interpreted as flat damage that cannot be staged up then stun weapons become good but able to be improved on.

[Karoline]

Damm there are like half a dozen of these threads right now, all whit people claiming shock weapons are super duper good and million times better then anythink else.
But no one ever post any actuall facts showing that is the case.
Yes they are good but there are better options that do more damage for both melee and ranged combat.

No one has posted the facts because they are easy to see in the book. SnS damage placed in a pistol gives it +2 damage, increases its AP by a variable but generally large amount, and gives a handy secondary effect. Oh, nearly forgot, you're also dealing with impact armor instead of ballistic, which is nearly always a couple of points lower. All this for a fairly minimal added expense, no extra illegality for the gun (And perhaps even a better argument with a cop about why you have one), and the ammo isn't hard to find. Compare with the harder to find and more expensive EX-EX ammo, which only increases damage and AP by 1. Similarly APDS ammo which is more expensive still, and far harder to find provides no bonus damage, and only 4 extra AP, which means it will do less damage than an SnS round.

Now, if you're talking about a sniper rifle or something, yeah, loading an SnS round into it isn't going to provide any real bonus. If you're looking at assault rifles, you're keeping the same damage code, and throwing on a very nice AP bonus as well as secondary effect. And of course it allows for a very "I can shoot whatever because it is non-lethal SnS rounds" attitude.

Personally I have no problem with tazers and stun batons, it is only the absurdity of SnS rounds in things like light pistols.

What likely should be done is change SnS from being a flat damage to being 1 or 2 damage less than would be normal for the weapon, and then keeping the half impact armor and stun effect. It only makes sense that a shotgun fires a more effective SnS round than a light pistol.

[Yerameyahu]

AFAIK, *everyone* has posted the facts, esp. for S&S.

If you were using a variable S&S size fix, I wouldn't drop the DV; 4's pretty low already. Straight 'convert to S(e), -Half Impact' would still give shotguns an edge.

[Karoline]

AFAIK, *everyone* has posted the facts, esp. for S&S.

If you were using a variable S&S size fix, I wouldn't drop the DV; 4's pretty low already. Straight 'convert to S(e), -Half Impact' would still give shotguns an edge.

But if you don't drop the damage they are generally going to be as good as or slightly better than APDS rounds, only way easier to get.

[Inpu]

If the use of SnS ammo becomes prolific, wouldn't the opposition invest a little money in non-conductive armor? It'd probably work for a group pretty well in the first few runs, then be guarded against after a high success rate.

[Karoline]

You're right, but that just shows that there is a problem. If everyone gets non-conductive armor because everyone has SnS rounds, then, well first off it shows that SnS rounds were too effective in the first place, and second off it leaves the question open of "Since everyone gets non-conductive, why isn't basic armor just made more effective against electricity?"

Besides, there isn't any real difference between everyone in the world having non-conductive armor and simply making electric attacks weaker. Personally it isn't electric attacks I have a problem with, it is SnS rounds, so that's why I suggest nerfing SnS rounds over making everyone walk around in rubber suits.

I mean tasers are utterly pointless in the SR universe because SnS rounds can do the same thing only far more effectively. SnS rounds were a cool idea, a means of providing the gun bunny with a non-deadly attack, but they just weren't thought through properly. They make tasers pointless, and they make all other forms of ammo in most weapons pointless. Oh, and they act as instant spirit slayers, which is just stupid. To take down a spirit you either need a high end sniper rifle, a mage... or a light pistol with SnS ammo.

[Inpu]

I'm not sure it technically shows an issue. Escalation is pretty popular, and then when it looks like SnS rounds are not being used anymore 'because everyone has the armor against it anyways', then Megas stop spending extra money on the special armor and it starts all over again. So I think it goes in waves.

The Spirit bit is pretty much the only problem that you mentioned that I can actively see. That does seem to be a rather annoying issue. Is there a spell that could have a similar effect to non-conductive armor?

As an aside, I like the first line of your signature.

[Karoline]

True, the problem is that you don't tend to see it go in waves. Games tend to not last long enough to see that sort of thing, and I think GMs are hesitant to start putting everyone in the game world in non-conductive armor just because of their PCs. Sure, by the rules everyone should use SnS ammo, tasers, stun batons, and shock gloves, but fluff doesn't seem to really support that. Kind of like runners have a 50% awakened population usually, despite fluff saying that only 0.1% of people are awakened, and fluff showing 'large' magical groups as having a dozen or so awakened members. Anyway, I think GMs are often hesitant to put up awakened enemies because fluff doesn't seem to support there being many of them around, and similarly GMs are hesitant to throw on non-conductive armor because fluff doesn't support everyone and their mother walking around with electric attacks.

It's really a similar problem to magic. There is a way to negate it, but it just doesn't make sense for most encounters to have that negation.

There is no similar spell that I know of, though the armor spell would increase impact armor a bit, but it isn't hardened and so doesn't really help in the case of the spirit.

And thanks, I found it while reading some huge thread that had a bunch of those motivational posters. Was on some anti-hero looking group I think.

[Inpu]

Ah, well if we are talking one-shots or short games then yes, I fully agree with you on all counts. I would be loath to put people in specific armor unless it was a direct consequence of overuse of SnS.

I'll look through at some point and see if I can find a suitable counter for the spirits. Beyond that, one could thematically rule that the hardened armor is not bypassed in the case of spirits if it becomes a problem. The fluff is that the spirits are incredibly hard to dispose of.

[Yerameyahu]

Even with nonconductivity, S&S are still worth it, IIRC from last thread. It makes the 'drool' effect much rarer, though.

[Karoline]

Even with nonconductivity, S&S are still worth it, IIRC from last thread. It makes the 'drool' effect much rarer, though.

True, even with maxed out non-conductivity on an opponent you're better off using SnS ammo than regular ammo in a light pistol, and slightly better off than using APDS or EX-EX ammo too, though it might be a bit of a toss up if the person is using some really crappy armor with high grade non-conductivity for some reason, which says alot for SnS ammo.

[toturi]

True, the problem is that you don't tend to see it go in waves. Games tend to not last long enough to see that sort of thing, and I think GMs are hesitant to start putting everyone in the game world in non-conductive armor just because of their PCs. Sure, by the rules everyone should use SnS ammo, tasers, stun batons, and shock gloves, but fluff doesn't seem to really support that.

Many of the typical security forces (corp sec, Lone Star) that runners face do use tasers and stun batons as standard. It does not seem to cause a proliferation of non-conductive armor in any of the people that would go up against them on a regular basis - the thugs and gangs do not seem to be wearing non-conductive armor.

Other than for the PCs and certain special groups of NPCs (like Prime Runners), I do not think that it makes economical sense for anyone to buy SnS. APDS is less expensive than SnS. SnS is about 3 times as expensive as a single round of regular ammo.

[Jaid]

The Spirit bit is pretty much the only problem that you mentioned that I can actively see. That does seem to be a rather annoying issue. Is there a spell that could have a similar effect to non-conductive armor?

i have to admit, it confuses me that everyone is so opposed to having electric damage be more effective against spirits. makes perfect sense to me. it's like the modern version of the torch (in the pitchfork and torch combo), though usually you would want something a bit more impressive in appearance if you were making a movie (like a power line or a lightning bolt).

[Yerameyahu]

True, it's a huge 400% more than regular ammo.

But, it's also a tiny 6¥ more per bullet. It's a nonexistent 1¥ more than APDS, 3¥ more than Explosive, 2¥ *less* than EX-Ex… it's really not that expensive. Even firing FA, you're talking a couple hundred nuyen per clip over *regular ammo*, and barely anything over the specialty ammo you'd be using in place of the S&S.

So, it really depends on who we're talking about. Gangers? Perhaps not. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Joe Self-Defense? Almost certainly, especially because he's not intending to go through clips of this.

It's not a question per se of electric damage versus spirits. It's *taser* damage.

[Jaid]

It's not a question per se of electric damage versus spirits. It's *taser* damage.

news flash: tasers use electricity. shadowrun tasers use sufficiently damaging electricity that it will probably kill the average person in 2 hits if it's the regular taser, 3 hits if using the weaker ones. heck, the one that still trails wires is pretty likely to knock you out from stun damage, nevermind the electric effect.

(and on a side note, taser is making stick-n-shock shotgun shells *today*. in 60 years, if they haven't found a way to make those taser rounds even smaller, i will be shocked... pun intended)

[Karoline]

Hmm, was going from memory on the costs, was thinking ADPS was high cost, must have just been assuming that the high availability meant a high cost.

I do agree that there is certainly argument for electric attacks doing well against spirits, but once again, my problem isn't that electric attacks are good and effective and such, it is that SnS ammo is both powerful in its own right and an electric attack. If you're using a light pistol, there is literally no reason not to use SnS ammo unless you are utterly broke. Same for a heavy pistol, there really isn't much reason to not use SnS ammo. For other weapons, it is maybe a bit of a toss up, but unless you're strapped for cash or using a sniper rifle, SnS ammo is generally a good idea.

So, I don't have a huge problem with a stun baton or something similar being useful against a spirit, or even a tazer, but it is the SnS ammo that turns a light pistol into a Spirit Slayer ^tm.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

But if you don't drop the damage they are generally going to be as good as or slightly better than APDS rounds, only way easier to get.

You do realize that APDS rounds are cheaper than SnS rounds don't you? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) Sorry, Of course you do...
And as for legalities... Firearms are still regulated, whereas Tazers and Stun Batons are not... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Karoline]

Yeah, true, there is some legality issue between a pistol with SnS and a tazer/stun baton, but in general, that shouldn't be a huge issue for a runner. That's what fake IDs are for after all.

Edit: Also, 7 nuyen each to 8 nuyen each isn't exactly going to break the bank.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yeah, true, there is some legality issue between a pistol with SnS and a tazer/stun baton, but in general, that shouldn't be a huge issue for a runner. That's what fake IDs are for after all.

Edit: Also, 7 nuyen each to 8 nuyen each isn't exactly going to break the bank.

It won't, of course, but the argument still stands... there are better ammunition choices out there for cheaper costs... it just depends upon what you mean by "Better"... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Karoline]

It won't, of course, but the argument still stands... there are better ammunition choices out there for cheaper costs... it just depends upon whay you mean by "Better"... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Right, depends on the weapon in question and the opponent in question. Unless you're talking about a longarm or a very oddly armored opponent though, you'll generally be better off with the SnS ammo.

[toturi]

Edit: Also, 7 nuyen each to 8 nuyen each isn't exactly going to break the bank.

But it is 4 times as costly as regular ammo. Which was why I was saying that unless the (N)PC was someone where cost considerations are not a primary concern, then SnS is a very good ammo. To some runners, it isn't a concern, yet to others, it may be too expensive to fire a SnS every time he gets into a shootout.

[CanRay]

But it is 4 times as costly as regular ammo. Which was why I was saying that unless the (N)PC was someone where cost considerations are not a primary concern, then SnS is a very good ammo. To some runners, it isn't a concern, yet to others, it may be too expensive to fire a SnS every time he gets into a shootout.

The flipside is that SnS ammo would most likely be construed as "Less Than Lethal Attempt" in a court of law. A particular concern for Non-AA/AAA Corporations that have to deal with Lone Star when they exchange rounds with thieves.

Well, ones with SINs, at least.

But for the average Joe and Jane on the street or apartment, it's very much a concern. It's hard enough keeping NutraSoy on the table and the Simsense Unit fed!

[Badmoodguy88]

High voltages are used, but because most devices use a high frequency alternating current, the skin effect prevents a lethal amount of current from traveling into the body. The resulting 'shock' is caused by muscles twitching uncontrollably, appearing as muscle spasms.

Tasers primarily function by creating neuromuscular incapacitation, which means that it interrupts the ability of the brain to control the muscles in the body. This creates an immediate and unavoidable incapacitation that is not based on pain and cannot be overcome. Once the electricity stops flowing the subject immediately regains control of their body. Most subjects after being Tasered once will comply so as to avoid being Tasered a second time.

Some Taser models, particularly those used by police departments, also have a "Drive Stun" capability, where the Taser is held against the target without firing the projectiles, and is intended to cause pain without incapacitating the target. "Drive Stun" is "the process of using the EMD weapon [Taser] as a pain compliance technique. This is done by activating the EMD and placing it against an individual’s body. This can be done without an air cartridge in place or after an air cartridge has been deployed.

Taser International claims that Tasers are safe, but critics disagree, citing the number of deaths occurring after Taser use. Amnesty International has documented over 334 deaths that occurred after the use of Tasers between 2001 and 2008.

A study led by William Bozeman, of the Wake Forest University Baptist Medical Center, of nearly 1,000 persons subjected to Taser use, concluded that 99.7% of the subjects had either minor injuries, such as scrapes and bruises, or none at all, while three persons suffered injuries severe enough to need hospital admission, and two other subjects died. Their autopsy reports indicated neither death was related to the use of a Taser.

Manufacturers' instructions and manuals shipped with the products state that a half-second shock duration will cause intense pain and muscle contractions, startling most people greatly. Two to three seconds will often cause the subject to become dazed and drop to the ground, and over three seconds will usually completely disorient and drop an attacker for at least several seconds. TASER International warns law enforcement agencies that “prolonged or continuous exposure(s) to the TASER device’s electrical charge” may lead to medical risks such as cumulative exhaustion and breathing impairment.

also check out the Electrified water cannon. I could see it being a riot control weapon of the future.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrified_water_cannon

Also check out Picana. A cattle prod made specifically for electrical torture of humans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picana


Anyway I posted this because I thought some of you might like to learn a bit more about how tasers work and how electric weapons work. I think a bolt of lightning would be orders of magnitude larger voltage but it is instantaneous and stun guns deliver there electricity in a way that is more effective for their voltage (fast alternating current over time). Lightning is also alternating, as is wall current. You would charge a battery and run a computer off of DC with the aid of an AC to DC adapter built into the device.

[Yerameyahu]

Jaid, you completely missed the point. The fundamental point of contention is precisely *whether* taser weapons count as 'electricity elemental' attacks. Too busy being snarky? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Shinobi Killfist]

Non lethal has been superior in I think every edition. 4e just keeps the trend and maybe amps it up a bit. Narcojet is super fun for example, oh and while drain was generally a beast in 1e the sleep spell had a 1 staging for both damage and drain resistance. So it was one of the easiest spells to take no drain on and at the same time was probably the most effective combat spell in the game.

I'm not saying past editions mistakes make this editions mistakes any better. But it seems to me they have decided to make a conscious effort to make the non-lethal option the more attractive option in SR. I would have preferred the opposite so you can make the hard choice to go non-lethal or take the easy choice and go lethal, instead of the current system where the easy choice is non-lethal. Its not much of a moral stand if its just a better tactic.