Edge then edge again? Options

[VillainsVision]

Is there a limit on how much edge can be used at one time? Can you keep re-rolling misses? Until your all out of edge? And normally the rule of six doesn't apply on re-rolls but what if you use egde on the initial roll?

Thanks

[Yerameyahu]

Once.
Rule of 6 applies if you pre-use it, AFAI recall.

[Karoline]

I'm fairly sure you're only allowed to use edge once on any given thing. And you do use the rule of six on rerolls as far as I remember.

[DrZaius]

I recently came across this in a PbP game:

Rerolling failures has changed significantly. Instead of rolling 10 dice, getting 3 hits, and then 'rerolling failures' by rolling the remaining 7 dice to get additional hits is no longer a feature in the game.

According to my SR4A book, rerolling failures mean you re-roll the whole test. I.e., I roll 10 dice, get 3 hits, and decide to reroll it, keeping whatever result I get.

-DrZaius

[Karoline]

I recently came across this in a PbP game:

Rerolling failures has changed significantly. Instead of rolling 10 dice, getting 3 hits, and then 'rerolling failures' by rolling the remaining 7 dice to get additional hits is no longer a feature in the game.

According to my SR4A book, rerolling failures mean you re-roll the whole test. I.e., I roll 10 dice, get 3 hits, and decide to reroll it, keeping whatever result I get.

-DrZaius

Not unless that changed between 4e and 4A. You just reroll the dice you didn't get a hit on.

[Yerameyahu]

DrZaius, complete-reroll was my understanding, but it's not a *huge* difference. House-rule however your group likes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

There was a long thread about this: "You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit." People interpret it differently. It barely matters, but my personal take is complete-reroll. The use of the words 'all' (instead of 'each') and 'single test' imply that (to me).

[DrZaius]

I just re-read the rules, and I'm still confused (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

"You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit."

So I guess my first statement was incorrect?

[Yerameyahu]

Until the dev(s) who wrote it come tell us, it's certainly ambiguous. I feel the verbiage implies a full reroll of the Test, but others feel otherwise. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Statistically, it's not vastly (that is, game-breakingly) different, so do what you like. Obviously, preferential (partial) reroll would give more hits (and more reliably).

The best way to use Edge is (edit:)Rule-of-Six everything and add your huge Edge score, so this isn't even the biggest use case.

[Gamer6432]

Spending Edge
When you spend a point of Edge, you can choose to have one of the following happen:

• You may declare the use of Edge before rolling for any one test (or one interval
roll on an Extended Test). You may add a number of extra dice equal to your
full Edge attribute to the dice pool. All dice (not just Edge dice) rolled on this
test are subject to the Rule of Six (p. 62), meaning that if you roll a 6, you count
it as a hit and roll it again.
• You may declare the use of Edge after you have rolled for one test. In this case,
you may roll a number of extra dice equal to your full Edge attribute and add
their hits to the test’s total. The Rule of Six (p. 62), however, applies only to the
additional Edge dice rolled, not the original dice pool.
• You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit.
• You may make a Long Shot Test (p. 61) even if your dice pool was reduced to 0
or less; roll only your Edge dice for this test (the Rule of Six does not apply).
• You may go first in an Initiative Pass, regardless of your Initiative Score (see
Initiative and Edge, p. 145). If multiple characters spend Edge to go first in the
same pass, those characters go in order according to their Initiative Scores first,
then everyone else goes according to their Initiative Scores.
• You may gain 1 extra Initiative Pass for that Combat Turn only (see Initiative
and Edge, p. 145).
• You may negate the effects of one glitch or critical glitch.
• You may invoke the Dead Man’s trigger rule (p. 163).

A character can only spend Edge points on her own actions; she cannot spend it on
behalf of others (except when engaged in a “teamwork” test, p. 65). No more than
1 point of Edge can be spent on any specific test or action at one time. If you spent
a point of Edge for extra dice and rolled a critical glitch anyway, for example, you
cannot use Edge to negate that critical glitch since you have already applied Edge
to that test.

To the OP:
As the last paragraph says, this list is a pick one and only one deal. If you spend Edge to add to your pool (and invoke the Rule of Six), you may not spend Edge to reroll. Similarly, if you spend Edge to reroll and still don't like the result, you're stuck with it.

[Inpu]

I just re-read the rules, and I'm still confused (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

"You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit."

So I guess my first statement was incorrect?

I think it goes as written there, since Great Dragons have a similar ability to make a player reroll all hits in a roll, but not failing dice.

[Yerameyahu]

That use of Twist Fate is a good point, but it hurts as much as it helps. In its description, it clearly says "Failed dice are not re-rolled". This could imply that not mentioning it in on p74 means full re-rolls; on the other hand, the phrasing of 'dice that scored hits' is similar, which could mean p74 intended to mean partial rerolls. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) There's simply no way to be sure.

[Muspellsheimr]

Yet again...


"You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit."

The modifier "hit" can be applied to either "dice" or "test" within the English language. It is clearly poorly written, and either interpretation would be valid.

Except

Within the rules of the game, a "test" cannot score a "hit". As such, the modifier must be applied to "dice".

Rules as Written, if you decide to use the reroll option of Edge, you reroll all the dice that did not score a hit, while all dice that did score a hit are not rerolled.

[Yerameyahu]

*shrug* You can "score hits on a test", which is the same to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Not that it matters. I kinda prefer the (minor) gamble of testing fate.

[Inpu]

I think I'd go with the latter, since the wording is similar. I can see your point about not being entirely sure, though. Seems another line up to interpretation.

[Karoline]

Of course if you read "You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit." as 'hit' talking about 'test' and not 'dice' then you can only reroll a test in which you score no hits. So there are two ways to interpret this. Either you reroll dice that didn't get a hit, leaving the ones that did get a hit alone, or you can only use the option when no dice have come up as a hit, in which case you reroll all dice.

It should be noted that in neither interpretation do you reroll a die on which you got a hit.

[Cain]

Except "tests" don't score successes. Dice do that. 4.5 didn't change that.

[Makki]

The best way to use Edge is (edit:)Rule-of-Six everything and add your huge Edge score, so this isn't even the biggest use case.

this is just not mathematically correct. rule of thumb: unless your edge > dice pool-2, rerolling failures is the better options.
e.g. Edge 4, dice pool 5: use add und rule-of-6
Edge 3, dice pool 5: use rerolling failures
do the math.

that's btw the only interpretation i've ever seen. rerolling all dice that didn't hit.

[Deadmannumberone]

this is just not mathematically correct. rule of thumb: unless your edge > dice pool-2, rerolling failures is the better options.
e.g. Edge 4, dice pool 5: use add und rule-of-6
Edge 3, dice pool 5: use rerolling failures
do the math.

Okay...

Edge 3, DP 5, E+Ro6 = 8 dice base, 1.33 dice rerolled for 3.11 hits on average
Edge 3, DP 5, Reroll = 5 dice base, 3.33 dice rerolled for 2.78 hits on average.

The actual shift point is:

E=1, always reroll.
E=2, DP>3 reroll.
E=3, DP>6 reroll.
E=4, DP>9 reroll.
E=5, DP>12 reroll.
E=6, DP>15 reroll.
E=7, DP>18 reroll.

[Makki]

Okay...

Edge 3, DP 5, E+Ro6 = 8 dice base, 1.33 dice rerolled for 3.11 hits on average
Edge 3, DP 5, Reroll = 5 dice base, 3.33 dice rerolled for 2.78 hits on average.

The actual shift point is:

E=1, always reroll.
E=2, DP>3 reroll.
E=3, DP>6 reroll.
E=4, DP>9 reroll.
E=5, DP>12 reroll.
E=6, DP>15 reroll.
E=7, DP>18 reroll.

thx for the push, i did my math again, and i accidently missed a letter in my formula (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
my math now tells me, a die using Ro6 effectively hits with a chance of 40%
still i get slightly different results than yours:
E=1, DP>2 reroll.
E=2, DP>5 reroll.
E=3, DP>8 reroll.
E=4, DP>10 reroll.
E=5, DP>13 reroll.
E=6, DP>15 reroll.
E=7, DP>18 reroll.

[Nixda]

The decision is a bit more complicated because of glitches though.

If you spent a point of edge before the test, and it turns out to be a glitch, you cannot spend edge to negate that glitch. If you were planning on spending the edge point after the roll to reroll failures, and the roll turns out to be a glitch, then you can still expend that point of edge to avoid the glitch instead.

On the other hand, having more dice in the pool does make a glitch occuring more unlikely.

[Draco18s]

If you spent a point of edge before the test, and it turns out to be a glitch, you cannot spend edge to negate that glitch. If you were planning on spending the edge point after the roll to reroll failures, and the roll turns out to be a glitch, then you can still expend that point of edge to avoid the glitch instead.

Or you could reroll all of those non-hit dice, maybe even pulling out more hits. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
Or in the case of "all or nothing" interpretation, you could decide you don't like your "1-hit glitch" and just scoop them all up and try again.

[Makki]

The decision is a bit more complicated because of glitches though.

If you spent a point of edge before the test, and it turns out to be a glitch, you cannot spend edge to negate that glitch. If you were planning on spending the edge point after the roll to reroll failures, and the roll turns out to be a glitch, then you can still expend that point of edge to avoid the glitch instead.

On the other hand, having more dice in the pool does make a glitch occuring more unlikely.

happened to my Edge7 guy recently. resisting some stupid poison. Bod3+edge7=10 dice, rolled a critical glitch anyway (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[StealthSigma]

I recently came across this in a PbP game:

Rerolling failures has changed significantly. Instead of rolling 10 dice, getting 3 hits, and then 'rerolling failures' by rolling the remaining 7 dice to get additional hits is no longer a feature in the game.

According to my SR4A book, rerolling failures mean you re-roll the whole test. I.e., I roll 10 dice, get 3 hits, and decide to reroll it, keeping whatever result I get.

-DrZaius

There's nothing in spending edge that says reroll a failed test. I see rerolling all dice that did not score a hit.

[Draco18s]

There's nothing in spending edge that says reroll a failed test. I see rerolling all dice that did not score a hit.

Think of it like this:

"You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test (that did not score a hit)."

As opposed to how you are seeing it (and as I personally interpret):

"You may re-roll all of the dice (on a single test) that did not score a hit."

In both cases the parenthetical is referring to the noun immediately preceding it.

[Deadmannumberone]

thx for the push, i did my math again, and i accidently missed a letter in my formula (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
my math now tells me, a die using Ro6 effectively hits with a chance of 40%
still i get slightly different results than yours:
E=1, DP>2 reroll.
E=2, DP>5 reroll.
E=3, DP>8 reroll.
E=4, DP>10 reroll.
E=5, DP>13 reroll.
E=6, DP>15 reroll.
E=7, DP>18 reroll.

Okay. It looks like I forgot to add the extra bonus from the Ro6 in my math.

However;
E=1, DP=1 is situational. You are better off with the reroll when one hit is enough, as in both cases you end up with a 66% chance of scoring one or more hits and if you score a hit on the first roll, you can save the edge. If you need more than one hit, then E+Ro6 is the only option.