Edge then edge again? Options

[Yerameyahu]

Page 74 implies that you don't. Rerolled dice are not 'Edge dice'.

[Deadmannumberone]

Rule of Six
The Rule of Six only applies to tests made with Edge dice (p. 74).
When Edge is spent on a test, any dice that roll sixes are counted as hits
and then re-rolled. Thus dice rolled with Edge can potentially generate
more than 1 hit (since you keep re-rolling sixes).

When you spend a point of Edge, you can choose to have one of the following happen:
• You may declare the use of Edge before rolling for any one test (or one interval
roll on an Extended Test). You may add a number of extra dice equal to your
full Edge attribute to the dice pool. All dice (not just Edge dice) rolled on this
test are subject to the Rule of Six (p. 62), meaning that if you roll a 6, you count
it as a hit and roll it again.
• You may declare the use of Edge after you have rolled for one test. In this case,
you may roll a number of extra dice equal to your full Edge attribute and add
their hits to the test’s total. The Rule of Six (p. 62), however, applies only to the
additional Edge dice rolled, not the original dice pool.
• You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit.
• You may make a Long Shot Test (p. 61) even if your dice pool was reduced to 0
or less; roll only your Edge dice for this test (the Rule of Six does not apply).

The bolded parts are important, as only rolls including Edge dice benefit from Ro6. The reroll adds no Edge dice (and the long shot specifically states that it is exempt from Ro6).

[Karoline]

meaning that if you roll a 6, you count
it as a hit and roll it again.

This seems to be the truly important part.

[Cain]

Thus dice rolled with Edge can potentially generate
more than 1 hit (since you keep re-rolling sixes).

Seems pretty clear-cut to me.

[Yerameyahu]

Karoline, Cain, I can't tell what question you're answering. Page 74 clearly points out cases where Ro6 applies, and say nothing about it in the reroll bullet point.

[Faraday]

SR4 prohibits Ro6 in general. The only time it comes into play is when some effect specifically allows for it, like when you use edge in specific ways. Since, in the case of rerolling, there is no mention of Ro6, one can therefore assume no Ro6.

Also, I would go with rerolling all failed dice in a given test in the case of the 3rd Edge use option. It's already been argued to death, and any points I have to bring up on the subject have already been made, so I won't bother. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[StealthSigma]

Page 74 implies that you don't. Rerolled dice are not 'Edge dice'.

Rule of Six
The Rule of Six only applies to tests made with Edge dice (p. 74).
When Edge is spent on a test, any dice that roll sixes are counted as hits
and then re-rolled. Thus dice rolled with Edge can potentially generate
more than 1 hit (since you keep re-rolling sixes).

Spending Edge
*You may declare the use of Edge before rolling for any one test (or one interval
roll on an Extended Test). You may add a number of extra dice equal to your
full Edge attribute to the dice pool. All dice (not just Edge dice) rolled on this
test are subject to the Rule of Six (p. 62), meaning that if you roll a 6, you count
it as a hit and roll it again.

All dice qualify for Rule of Six because edge was spent prior to roll and edge dice are used.

Spending Edge
*You may declare the use of Edge after you have rolled for one test. In this case,
you may roll a number of extra dice equal to your full Edge attribute and add
their hits to the test’s total. The Rule of Six (p. 62), however, applies only to the
additional Edge dice rolled, not the original dice pool.

The additional dice rolled qualify for Rule of Six because edge was spent prior to the roll of edge dice. The dice rolled previous to the edge spent that came up 6 do not qualify for Rule of Six because Edge and Edge dice had yet to be invoked.

Spending Edge
*You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit.

None of those dice rolled qualify for Rule of Six since edge dice are not used.

For Rule of Six to come into play, the roll you are making must have included Edge Dice. Rule of six cannot apply by RAW without edge dice present.

[Karoline]

Karoline, Cain, I can't tell what question you're answering. Page 74 clearly points out cases where Ro6 applies, and say nothing about it in the reroll bullet point.

Oh, guess I wasn't reading closely enough. Thought people were trying to figure out if a die that comes up 6, then gets rerolled due to Ro6, still has Ro6 applied to it, but they were talking about if Ro6 applies when you spend edge to reroll the dice that didn't get a hit.

Far as I can tell, Ro6 doesn't apply to rerolling non-hits, since it doesn't say that it does (Though it is true that it doesn't specify that it doesn't like long shot does)

[Yerameyahu]

The reason Long Shot specifies is because those *are* Edge dice. So, it's a specific case where Edge dice don't get Ro6.

[yesferatu]

I am coming into this a little late, but is can edge be spent once per action or once per test?
I understand the following:
1. You can spend a point of edge to go first
2. You can spend a point of edge to get an extra initiative pass
3. You can spend a point of edge once each action
- However...how does that work on defense and drain?

Can I spend a point of edge each time I defend as well?
Is the drain soak roll separate from the spell casting roll?

In short, is it possible for a mage with 5 edge to:
1. Spend edge to go first
2. Cast a mana bolt with edge
3. Resist the drain with edge
4. Spend edge on a defensive dodge roll
5. Spend a point to get an additional initiative pass

[Draco18s]

I am coming into this a little late, but is can edge be spent once per action or once per test?
I understand the following:
1. You can spend a point of edge to go first
2. You can spend a point of edge to get an extra initiative pass
3. You can spend a point of edge once each action
- However...how does that work on defense and drain?

Can I spend a point of edge each time I defend as well?
Is the drain soak roll separate from the spell casting roll?

In short, is it possible for a mage with 5 edge to:
1. Spend edge to go first
2. Cast a mana bolt with edge
3. Resist the drain with edge
4. Spend edge on a defensive dodge roll
5. Spend a point to get an additional initiative pass

Yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes.

[Kruger]

There was a long thread about this: "You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit." People interpret it differently. It barely matters, but my personal take is complete-reroll. The use of the words 'all' (instead of 'each') and 'single test' imply that (to me).

The only way that wording would read the way you interpret it is if the test had zero hits total. By your own example, you said if the test had three hits out of ten dice, you'd re-roll all of them. However, that test scored three hits so wouldn't be eligible for a re-roll at all. You'd have to either totally fail, or not get a re-roll. Which seems rather restrictive for a concept like Edge.

It only makes sense that you re-roll the dice that missed.

[Deadmannumberone]

I am coming into this a little late, but is can edge be spent once per action or once per test?
I understand the following:
1. You can spend a point of edge to go first
2. You can spend a point of edge to get an extra initiative pass
3. You can spend a point of edge once each action
- However...how does that work on defense and drain?

Can I spend a point of edge each time I defend as well?
Is the drain soak roll separate from the spell casting roll?

In short, is it possible for a mage with 5 edge to:
1. Spend edge to go first
2. Cast a mana bolt with edge
3. Resist the drain with edge
4. Spend edge on a defensive dodge roll
5. Spend a point to get an additional initiative pass

Yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes.

Slight correction, 5 has to be done first, and 2 and 3 can't be done together.

[KarmaInferno]

It'd be nice if at some point in the past couple of years one of the various SR developers would have chimed in somewhere on what they actually MEANT by rerolling failed die or test, huh?





-karma

[Draco18s]

Slight correction, 5 has to be done first, and 2 and 3 can't be done together.

Uh. 2 and 3 can totally be done together. They're different rolls. Hell, you can edge a Defense test (still get shot) and then edge the following Damage Resistance test.

As for #5, you can do that one, the order may matter, but you can still do it.

[Deadmannumberone]

Uh. 2 and 3 can totally be done together. They're different rolls. Hell, you can edge a Defense test (still get shot) and then edge the following Damage Resistance test.

They are different rolls, but they are the same action, and only one point of edge can be spent per action or test.

As for #5, you can do that one, the order may matter, but you can still do it.

The order does matter, because once you start taking actions you lose the option to spend edge for an extra IP. Though I suppose it could be done in slot 2 if slot one was used to spend edge to go first in the pass.

[yesferatu]

So it is once per action, or once per test?
Could you roll edge for a dodge and then roll edge on the soak?
Are those two tests, or is it just one action?

I've seen it explained as once per test, but I've also seen once per action only.


This post has been edited by yesferatu: Aug 11 2010, 05:32 PM

[Blastula]

Ambiguity in the rules is just fun. It means that 2 groups of players can be playing RAW and still have mechanically different games. Hooray for variety!

[Draco18s]

So it is once per action, or once per test?
Could you roll edge for a dodge and then roll edge on the soak?
Are those two tests, or is it just one action?

I've seen it explained as once per test, but I've also seen once per action only.

No more than 1
point of Edge can be spent on any specific test or action at
one time.

You can spend only 1 Edge per test or per one action at one time. So if you are performing multiple actions at once you can't spend Edge on both.

[yesferatu]

How is it possible that still doesn't answer my question?
So can you spend edge on a dodge and spend another edge on a soak?

[Cain]

You can spend only 1 Edge per test or per one action at one time. So if you are performing multiple actions at once you can't spend Edge on both.

Yes, but making an attack and resisting damage are totally separate tests. And really, that's all casting a spell and resisting Drain is.

[Deadmannumberone]

Yes, but making an attack and resisting damage are totally separate tests. And really, that's all casting a spell and resisting Drain is.

Actually, casting the spell and resisting the drain are both parts of your action. With dodge/damage resistance, it can be argued that the dodge is a part of your defensive action while the damage resistance is part of the attacker's action.

[Draco18s]

Actually, casting the spell and resisting the drain are both parts of your action.

But "resist drain" isn't an action by itself, nor are they the same test. Therefor, IMO, you can edge the casting (the action) and the drain (a result). It's not like firing two guns with two hands at the same time.

With dodge/damage resistance, it can be argued that the dodge is a part of your defensive action while the damage resistance is part of the attacker's action.

Again, dodge and damage resistance don't happen at the same time (and aren't the same test), again, unlike firing two guns at the same time.

[DMiller]

AHHHHH! Undead Thread!

Thread Necro (sorry guys), but at least my search-fu was strong today. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Given the following rule interpretations:
1. Re-rolling failed dice on a test means only the failed dice (not the whole pool) are re-rolled
2. When re-rolling failed dice, they are not Ro6
3. When adding edge before rolling, the whole fist-full of dice is Ro6

What is the ratio of Edge to Base Dice Pool before you re-roll rather than add to pool?

I hope that makes sense…

[Dyspeptic]

AHHHHH! Undead Thread!

Thread Necro (sorry guys), but at least my search-fu was strong today. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Don't worry, it's actually kind of interesting to see this again , as the second preview for 5th ED contains the Edge section, and some *much* clarified verbiage.

Given the following rule interpretations:
1. Re-rolling failed dice on a test means only the failed dice (not the whole pool) are re-rolled
2. When re-rolling failed dice, they are not Ro6
3. When adding edge before rolling, the whole fist-full of dice is Ro6

What is the ratio of Edge to Base Dice Pool before you re-roll rather than add to pool?

I hope that makes sense…

Roughly 1:3

I haven't crunched the number completely, but that's pretty close. Once your dice pool exceeds 3x your Edge Attribute, you're better off rerolling. Except in cases where you, the player, just need to be lucky; where you *need* the Rule of Six for it to be possible to roll the necessary successes.