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> Shenanigans, "High Society" and SIN
Voran
post Jul 21 2010, 11:10 PM
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I didn't want to derail the other SIN thread, so I'll pen my own.

Understandably, we focus alot on the runner aspect of SINs, why we need to create fake ones to 'stick it to the man' and breeze past locations. But then I started thinking, how do non-runners handle it.

Given how it happens nowadays, and the increase in...well..temptations...in the 2070s setting, how do high muckitymucks or even sorta-high-up-on-the food-chain types pull off the shenanigans of illicit behavior? Going to the strip club, hooking up with Candy and her friend Mindy, secret rendezvous at the loveshack?

Its a given that you have to have a commlink active in a Medium or higher rated zone, but if you're Mr. Corp VP and you don't want record of your visit to Mistress Naughties House of Pain, how do you do it? You can't go hidden, as you'll raise a flag. But I don't really see every badbadboy/girl running around with fake SINs either.

On one hand, I guess this is why corps probably offer their own in house 'entertainment' to those they feel deserve it, so at least records of naughtiness sorta stays 'in house'. But obviously there's a criminal empire that runs on smut and blackmail, so high up enough people still go off the reservation.

Paying with certified cred is easy, it'd be like using cash instead of your credit card at the stripclub/brothel, but given the focus on all-commlink all-the time, how do 'normals' pull off covert stuff? Is it just impossible by the rulesetting without them using their own hacker connections?

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Doc Chase
post Jul 21 2010, 11:25 PM
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Money money money money.

Monaaaay.

If a mucky-muck needs something done, he bribes somebody to do it. They don't get their hands dirty, that's what shadowrunners are for.

He doesn't want record of his visit to Mistress Victoria? He bribes someone to erase the backtrail. Enough money and power will get anyone to turn their head.
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Falanin
post Jul 21 2010, 11:27 PM
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Or he hires some runners to extract his favorite bunraku girls to his house in Outremer for the weekend.
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Doc Chase
post Jul 21 2010, 11:28 PM
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Would he even have to? With the resources at Johnny McRichMan's disposal, he can just pay the Yaks/Mob/Whoever to bring them up and keep contractors out of it.
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Falanin
post Jul 21 2010, 11:33 PM
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Well, if he goes with independent talent, he doesn't have to worry as much about his former associates blackmailing him about his involvement in shady activities. The big syndicates, you don't ever really stop dealing with them, once you've started.
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Doc Chase
post Jul 21 2010, 11:35 PM
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Well I suppose, but independent talent could do the same thing...Well, I suppose if he did and they tried, then he can just hire more talent to have them removed.

A never ending cycle.
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tagz
post Jul 21 2010, 11:40 PM
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Well connected and with disposable income gets you into a lot of doors with people looking the other way. Not only that, but when you have power and money you can get the temptations to come to you on your terms.

Also, I see it a bit as "working as intended". It's things like this that provide for runs in the first place. Runs like "Get dirt on Mr.X" or "Remove the dirt on me, MR.X"
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Karoline
post Jul 22 2010, 12:01 AM
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I would imagine that, among other things, Mistress Naughties House of Pain doesn't show up on their customer's SIN as that. Kind of like I'd imagine porn doesn't show up on a credit card as "Giant stack of pornos!!!" Maybe it just shows up as MNHoP or something even less likely to get noticed, like looking like some kind of entertainment channel purchase, and a visit there just registers as something innocuous on any sort of tracking stuff as being bar or restaurant.

That, or maybe it goes on a SIN as privet data that can't be accessed by corps and such. Government could still look at your SIN and tell that you really like big butts ((IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ) but the local stuffer shack isn't going to start suggesting "Bootylicious 5, now with bigger butts!" whenever you go for a soycaf.
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MortVent
post Jul 22 2010, 12:16 AM
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don't forget legit banks allow thier clients to have one time IDs too for some transactions
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Synner667
post Jul 22 2010, 12:20 AM
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But anyone who wants to know what you've been upto can just do a scan of cameras/hotspots nearby and see what you've been upto that way.
No record of you at the whorehouse...
...But there is a record of you getting a taxi to that location, and a record of you leaving - as well as cctv of you, probably face tagged.
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KnightRunner
post Jul 22 2010, 12:23 AM
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Hey leave Candy and Mindy out of it. I can assure you they are upstanding ladies. (wink wink)
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Karoline
post Jul 22 2010, 12:34 AM
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QUOTE (Synner667 @ Jul 21 2010, 08:20 PM) *
But anyone who wants to know what you've been upto can just do a scan of cameras/hotspots nearby and see what you've been upto that way.
No record of you at the whorehouse...
...But there is a record of you getting a taxi to that location, and a record of you leaving - as well as cctv of you, probably face tagged.


Except the books go through great length to explain how difficult that is, otherwise shadowrunning would be impossible if people could just pull all CCTV footage of you out of the matrix without trouble. Most of that stuff is going to be on private or corprate databases that won't share, the taxi fare won't say where you were going or were picked up from, only roughly how far you traveled based on how much you paid.

Remember that a big part of SR is "Yes, there is info on X out there, but you can't get to it because of arbitrary reason Y."
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tagz
post Jul 22 2010, 12:38 AM
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QUOTE (Synner667 @ Jul 22 2010, 12:20 AM) *
But anyone who wants to know what you've been upto can just do a scan of cameras/hotspots nearby and see what you've been upto that way.
No record of you at the whorehouse...
...But there is a record of you getting a taxi to that location, and a record of you leaving - as well as cctv of you, probably face tagged.

Yeah, but in that case you've already been targeted and are being watched. I don't think ANYONE in that case can avoid having blackmail material stick to them, unless they aren't doing anything incriminating to begin with. At which point, fabricate some. Maybe the sod knows it's fake, but I bet he'll care if OTHER people think it's real. Point is, anyone being watched specifically 24-7 won't have much of a fighting chance.

Now if you're dealing with after the fact there's info bualkanization to deal with, and much of it may not be publicly assessable. 10 hacker rolls later you'll have it, but you have to go through that first and that's why not everyone is getting blackmailed all the time. Just not feasible to everyone, so only to people you have reason to go after.
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Snow_Fox
post Jul 22 2010, 12:54 AM
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My guess is that they have fake commlinks/SIN's/Credsticks set up by the corp. On the id it's Mr John Smith or Watanbe Tanaka and the cred is good. the people in the illicent love nest doesn't care if they're with the CFO of horizon or "that guy I saw on the news" so long as the credit is good. IOt's their gravey train, and anyone who does try to blab to the paparrazzi the only evidence they have is a perfectly good record of Tanaka-san and not the honorable Senator like they claimed.
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Synner667
post Jul 22 2010, 12:58 AM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Jul 22 2010, 01:34 AM) *
Except the books go through great length to explain how difficult that is, otherwise shadowrunning would be impossible if people could just pull all CCTV footage of you out of the matrix without trouble. Most of that stuff is going to be on private or corprate databases that won't share, the taxi fare won't say where you were going or were picked up from, only roughly how far you traveled based on how much you paid.

Remember that a big part of SR is "Yes, there is info on X out there, but you can't get to it because of arbitrary reason Y."


Excuses about how difficult shadowrun would be, and that's why something doesn't happen, is very sad - it shows the game can't stand on it's own, having to use hand waving and "because it has to be that way or the game doesn't work" to survive.

That's why you have to be good, not just some tosser with a bit of cheap 'ware and a crap attitude.

Why would public space cctv footage be owned by a company - unless you envision that all space in a city is actively owned by a company [in which case they'd have to maintain it] ??
And so what if cctv footage is held on someone's datastack - some people do this thing called "hacking" to access computer networks, without permission

The taxi doesn't have to say anything, traffic logs for automatic taxis would - unless you envision people driving taxis, people open to bribery and blackmail ??
Depending on how cities are set up, traffic monitoring gear provides all the info you need, as far as which car went where.


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Karoline
post Jul 22 2010, 01:09 AM
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I'm sorry, but how many public CCTV cameras have you ever seen? None? Because they don't exist? All CCTV cameras are going to be owned by someone or something. They're going to be the bank's, or the stuffer shacks, or the governments, or whoevers, but there aren't going to be random publicly accessible cameras all over the place.

And sure, you can hack into a corp to get the five seconds of footage they have on the person, and then have to hack into another corp to get the next five seconds. I'd also be willing to bet that the camera footage of an area around any of these smut places is going to be as closely controlled as possible by that place to prevent specifically what you're talking about. They don't want no repeat customers because every one of them gets blackmailed because it is so easy to find footage of these high rollers visiting.

And sure, you can maybe figure out where a taxi was (If you first hack into a couple databases) but you still have to figure out which taxi was being used (I'm sure the credit info would just say 'taxi service' as opposed to IDing a particular taxi) among the thousand and thousands of them in the city.

Here is the problem you have: Either data is obfuscated like that, or it is literally impossible for anyone to do anything illegal ever. Sure, your runner might be all 'pro' and everything, but that doesn't matter if the corp he just hit can just watch all the CCTVs in the city and track him to his hideout. Disguises are pointless if they can just watch you constantly as you make your way to your safe point.
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Synner667
post Jul 22 2010, 01:10 AM
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QUOTE (tagz @ Jul 22 2010, 01:38 AM) *
Yeah, but in that case you've already been targeted and are being watched. I don't think ANYONE in that case can avoid having blackmail material stick to them, unless they aren't doing anything incriminating to begin with. At which point, fabricate some. Maybe the sod knows it's fake, but I bet he'll care if OTHER people think it's real. Point is, anyone being watched specifically 24-7 won't have much of a fighting chance.

Now if you're dealing with after the fact there's info bualkanization to deal with, and much of it may not be publicly assessable. 10 hacker rolls later you'll have it, but you have to go through that first and that's why not everyone is getting blackmailed all the time. Just not feasible to everyone, so only to people you have reason to go after.

Who to say that companies don't routinely have a low level ai follow people around, following via cameras ??
How hard or expensive would it be to set systems up to record and follow anyone who approaches or leaves location x ??

Remember how cheap SR v4 has computers and software, all nicely linked via wireless networks

Remember how ubiquitous big companies are, and how easy it would be for them to get access to data to pretty much anyone, unless there's a reason for that data not to be available - horsetrading, personal relationship, plain ol' hacking for data...
...Remembering how easy it is for players, and therefore non-players

I can imagine that video and audio footage from unsecured sources probably isn't very trusted - because it's so easy to fake or manipulate [how much do you trust pictures in the media in the realworld, considering how much has been shown to be photoshopped - or just faked ??]
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tagz
post Jul 22 2010, 01:16 AM
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QUOTE (Synner667 @ Jul 22 2010, 01:58 AM) *
Excuses about how difficult shadowrun would be, and that's why something doesn't happen, is very sad - it shows the game can't stand on it's own, having to use hand waving and "because it has to be that way or the game doesn't work" to survive.

That's why you have to be good, not just some tosser with a bit of cheap 'ware and a crap attitude.

And this is why runners aren't just criminals in a future punk magical setting. They're EXCEPTIONAL criminals in said setting. They can do what others can't. They will do what others won't bother to, and they will continue to run while the others fail. It's why 9 out of 10 runners die their first year of running, it weeds out those who don't bother like most of the populace.

I mean, ask yourself, do you have copies of your birth certificate, important legal documents, and some money tucked away in a safe deposit box? You should. We all should. Who actually does? Not all of us that's for sure.
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sabs
post Jul 22 2010, 01:17 AM
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Shadowrun holds up just fine as a Black Trenchcoat game.
It's the Pink Mohawk no consequences games that don't hold up outside of Z-zones/Barrens.

To run in High security areas you need to be on the ball, you need seriously talented hacker access.
And you need to be careful.

Fake SiN's probably need to be easier for high grade hackers to procure. Because you need them.

Of course it could be because my ideal 'run' is hours of legwork, several small runs to setup favorable conditions, and then 20 minutes of intense terror and lethality.

A good run, is a run that goes as smoothly as possible with as little splash.
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Synner667
post Jul 22 2010, 01:40 AM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Jul 22 2010, 02:09 AM) *
I'm sorry, but how many public CCTV cameras have you ever seen? None? Because they don't exist? All CCTV cameras are going to be owned by someone or something. They're going to be the bank's, or the stuffer shacks, or the governments, or whoevers, but there aren't going to be random publicly accessible cameras all over the place.

Actually, I live in the UK - known to have a very high percentage of cctv.
Most is not owned by anyone, because it's in public [so it is owned by whoever owns the city] - which means it's not owned by companies - in a shopping centre it's owned by the company that owns it.
Some places have publicly accessible cctv, so members of the public can watch for crime and report it.

QUOTE (Karoline @ Jul 22 2010, 02:09 AM) *
And sure, you can hack into a corp to get the five seconds of footage they have on the person, and then have to hack into another corp to get the next five seconds. I'd also be willing to bet that the camera footage of an area around any of these smut places is going to be as closely controlled as possible by that place to prevent specifically what you're talking about. They don't want no repeat customers because every one of them gets blackmailed because it is so easy to find footage of these high rollers visiting.

We have cameras that can track left, right, up and down - I imagine such cameras still exist in the future.
Since cameras near each other are close by, it would be sensible to assume they're owned by the same company.

Or maybe you just hack satellites, and use their high definition cameras to track your target.
Or you have someone put a tracer on them if you're really interested in someone - oh yes, these are rich people and people might be interested in them
You access their anti-kidnap stuff they have installed, or their docwagon bands [which might have to broadcast their signal 24/7 to be useful]

QUOTE (Karoline @ Jul 22 2010, 02:09 AM) *
And sure, you can maybe figure out where a taxi was (If you first hack into a couple databases) but you still have to figure out which taxi was being used (I'm sure the credit info would just say 'taxi service' as opposed to IDing a particular taxi) among the thousand and thousands of them in the city.

The issue would be who owns the taxi - access their records, which they might have to keep for legal reasons, and you got your info.
You have access to the chap's telecomm number ??
You can track him quite nicely - like you can in the realworld, put a phone number into a website and locate it [or hack someones mobileme account and locate them that way]

QUOTE (Karoline @ Jul 22 2010, 02:09 AM) *
Here is the problem you have: Either data is obfuscated like that, or it is literally impossible for anyone to do anything illegal ever. Sure, your runner might be all 'pro' and everything, but that doesn't matter if the corp he just hit can just watch all the CCTVs in the city and track him to his hideout. Disguises are pointless if they can just watch you constantly as you make your way to your safe point.

People get away with ding illegal things by being clever, by using their resources, by thinking ahead...
...So how does someone in a wired/surveillance world get to do things ??

He gets a cab and drops off somewhere normal
He walks, wearing a hat and a coat
He pays using cash [if he can get it] or untraceable creditchips
He buys disposable phones
He hires someone to stand overwatch, their software changing the cctv footage in real time
He doesn't walk around like an idiot, with a big sign that says "I'm doing something suspicious, by desperately trying not to be noticed"
He arranges events to distract
He arrange [what appears to be] duplicates
He blends in, so the police don't notice him, so the girl doesn't tweet about "the bloke with the heavy coat and jangling sound as he walks around"
He doesn't fire unsilenced guns, because police drones will triangulate the shots and find him
He doesn't fry his RFID chips, because a black hole of data is suspicious, and people look for them [because criminals do it]

Watch Enemy of the State, for ideas.
The Net might also be good

The thing about companies and revenge, isn't anything to do with knowing who you are...
...There's numerus notes about companies keeping files on people and blackmailing them...
...A multibillion dollar company can always find you, if they want to

They don't come after you because there's no percentage in it, they might to use you another time, they might bide their time and strike when you're doing something else, they just pass the info onto someone else - and so forth.


Now it's late and I'm tired and I'm off to bed...
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Karoline
post Jul 22 2010, 01:40 AM
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QUOTE (tagz @ Jul 21 2010, 09:16 PM) *
And this is why runners aren't just criminals in a future punk magical setting. They're EXCEPTIONAL criminals in said setting. They can do what others can't. They will do what others won't bother to, and they will continue to run while the others fail. It's why 9 out of 10 runners die their first year of running, it weeds out those who don't bother like most of the populace.


Okay, so how does a 'pro' runner operate when every corp has 24/7 surveillance of nearly every inch of the city? How does such a runner even make it inside the building when everything is being watched all the time? A hacker can only mess with so many cameras at a time? How does your pro get past the door with a camera on the other side, disconnected from the matrix, that is wired to set up an alarm as soon as the door opens?

How do you communicate with your team when the local IC is running constant extended scan checks for hidden nodes and a sound recognition software is running on hidden microphones throughout the building to pick up any odd noises?

After the run is over, how does he prevent an AI running along the ultra camera network tracking him right back to his safehouse?

Face it, the reality is that it is unbelievably easy to make running impossible within the rules of SR. It is easy to set up so many defenses that setting off an alarm is impossible to prevent, even as soon as a few seconds within entering the compound, and then if the corp really has the CCTV access you imagine, it is impossible to stop them tracking wee wee wee all the way home.
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tagz
post Jul 22 2010, 01:44 AM
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QUOTE (Synner667 @ Jul 22 2010, 02:10 AM) *
Who to say that companies don't routinely have a low level ai follow people around, following via cameras ??
How hard or expensive would it be to set systems up to record and follow anyone who approaches or leaves location x ??

Not much at all, I agree. But you still have to know what you're looking for. The AI idea is good but AIs as written tend not to understand the physical world and what people do on it too well. And and Agent? Well, I get recognition software.... but intention software?

QUOTE
Remember how cheap SR v4 has computers and software, all nicely linked via wireless networks

linked=/=access Just because my 'link gets it's e-mail feed routed from the connection from the stuffer shack doesn't mean I have access to the camera feed there. Have to hack. Have to work for it.

If it's ALL part of your own network that's a different story. But I think also places that blackmailed on a even semi-regular basis would get a reputation for it, and you could know to avoid them. Anonymity and the matrix, post some reviews, tell some stories.

QUOTE
Remember how ubiquitous big companies are, and how easy it would be for them to get access to data to pretty much anyone, unless there's a reason for that data not to be available - horsetrading, personal relationship, plain ol' hacking for data...
...Remembering how easy it is for players, and therefore non-players

Yes, anything publicly available. What's publicly available? Camera feeds? Not likely. One, you make it all publicly available then you immediately lose the blackmail potential, it's already out there. Two, anything on you do or anything embarrassing on your property recorded by your own camera... would you want that to be public in a SR world? I think not. Three, it diminishes the security aspect when potential criminals know where they will be observed and where they won't.

Private data is just that, private. Is it out there, sure, but again through hacking. Maybe you can do this in some cases, but most companies take it personally when another company hacks them to get some info, like a camera feed. Sounds like you'd be inviting trouble onto your company with this one, is it worth the risk? Certainly not worth the risk to do preemptively, so once again we're back to having a specific target. When you know this person is worth the effort it's more likely to do this sort of thing.


Also, blackmailing as a policy is just plain stupid. Will lots of people keel over and do what you want, of course. But you'll also get someone who doesn't play ball like you want. All it takes is one VP who gets a blackmail threat to turn to a group of runners for half the price to just kill the person behind the threat. All your arguments that make blackmail so easy then get turned around to making it easy to find the offender. Blackmail makes the most sense when you specifically want something from an individual you've selected, or when the info falls into your lap. Constantly looking for materiel to use for it is not a wise move.
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tagz
post Jul 22 2010, 01:45 AM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Jul 22 2010, 02:40 AM) *
Okay, so how does a 'pro' runner operate when every corp has 24/7 surveillance of nearly every inch of the city? How does such a runner even make it inside the building when everything is being watched all the time? A hacker can only mess with so many cameras at a time? How does your pro get past the door with a camera on the other side, disconnected from the matrix, that is wired to set up an alarm as soon as the door opens?

How do you communicate with your team when the local IC is running constant extended scan checks for hidden nodes and a sound recognition software is running on hidden microphones throughout the building to pick up any odd noises?

After the run is over, how does he prevent an AI running along the ultra camera network tracking him right back to his safehouse?

Face it, the reality is that it is unbelievably easy to make running impossible within the rules of SR. It is easy to set up so many defenses that setting off an alarm is impossible to prevent, even as soon as a few seconds within entering the compound, and then if the corp really has the CCTV access you imagine, it is impossible to stop them tracking wee wee wee all the way home.

Karoline, I'm not on the side of the discussion you think I am.
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Karoline
post Jul 22 2010, 01:52 AM
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QUOTE
Actually, I live in the UK - known to have a very high percentage of cctv.
Most is not owned by anyone, because it's in public [so it is owned by whoever owns the city] - which means it's not owned by companies - in a shopping centre it's owned by the company that owns it.
Some places have publicly accessible cctv, so members of the public can watch for crime and report it.

Which means they are owned by the government, which means you have to hack the government or go through tons of red tape to get access to them.

QUOTE
We have cameras that can track left, right, up and down - I imagine such cameras still exist in the future.
Since cameras near each other are close by, it would be sensible to assume they're owned by the same company.

Which is only helpful if you're actively watching someone, instead of trying to look through old footage to find them. And sure, some cameras can be moved by remote control, but plenty are in fixed positions that have to be adjusted manually.

QUOTE (Synner667 @ Jul 21 2010, 09:40 PM) *
He gets a cab and drops off somewhere normal
He walks, wearing a hat and a coat

Which would fall under "I'm doing something suspicious, by desprately trying not to be noticed"
QUOTE
He pays using cash [if he can get it] or untraceable creditchips

Good luck getting that, when you need it in order to get to the places you need to be to get it undetected. And how does he get these things in such a way that they can't be detected? He'd have to pay for them somehow, which would be traceable unless he is buying untraceable money with untraceable money.
QUOTE
He buys disposable phones

And then the purchase is traced and connected to the disposable phone.
QUOTE
He hires someone to stand overwatch, their software changing the cctv footage in real time

Too bad there are likely tons of camera that would have to be modified, and all of them would have to be hacked into. The hacker would have a hard time breaking into the dozens of different nodes and erasing everything without setting off alarms, and if he could, he would likely charge more than you could afford.
QUOTE
He doesn't walk around like an idiot, with a big sign that says "I'm doing something suspicious, by desperately trying not to be noticed"

In which case he is simply easily tracked just like every other Joe Average
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He arranges events to distract

Cameras are really hard to distract, what with their simply recording everything that goes on in front of them regardless of distractions.
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He arrange [what appears to be] duplicates

Which would be difficult to do without setting off some kind of alarm.
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Whipstitch
post Jul 22 2010, 01:58 AM
Post #25


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Gotta think signal to noise ratio. Office theft is one of the hardest crimes to stop simply because if you don't know when it happened how are you supposed to efficiently figure out who made off with the stapler? Even if the whole building is wired to the gills you'll have far more footage of bullshit than you'll have footage of smoking guns. Was Sheila up to something nefarious or was she just retrieving the post-it notes she gave Bob on Wednesday? Now, imagine you're Lone Star and instead of an office building you're watching the 'plex.
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