Shenanigans, "High Society" and SIN Options

[sabs]

Why would AAA corporations have access to CCTV feeds? they wouldn't.
They would on their extraterritorial, but they wouldn't outside of it.
Lonestar would have access to the cameras for the zones where they provide security and law enforcement.

The UCAS version of CIA/NSA/FBI would have illegal access to all that kind of thing.

Remember, Ares is going to have to jump through paperwork hell to get access to lonestar information.
Knight Errant is competing with Lone Star. Single and Double A's would be unlikely to swing any useful information from anyone unless there was a very obvious crime and a multi-jurisdictional task force was put together.

Honestly, all the multiple jurisdictions and nasty in fighting actually work for the Shadowrunners.

But outside of the barrens and Chicago and the wilds, they need to be smart.

[Karoline]

Gotta think signal to noise ratio. Office theft is one of the hardest crimes to stop simply because if you don't know when it happened how are you supposed to efficiently figure out who made off with the stapler? Even if the whole building is wired to the gills you'll have far more footage of bullshit than you'll have footage of smoking guns. Was Sheila up to something nefarious or was she just retrieving the post-it notes she gave Bob on Wednesday? Now, imagine you're Lone Star and instead of an office building you're watching the 'plex.

Which is basically my point. Data obfuscation happens, and that is why a person can reasonably do something like go to a sex club without being instantly blackmailed.

Why would AAA corporations have access to CCTV feeds? they wouldn't.
They would on their extraterritorial, but they wouldn't outside of it.
Lonestar would have access to the cameras for the zones where they provide security and law enforcement.

Once again my point. These things don't happen or SR would be totally unplayable regardless of how 'pro' you are.

[DireRadiant]

Just because there is one instance of something possible does not lead to that thing happening in all cases at all times.

Yep, there is tons of data and it could all be found and looked at.

Go for it, spend your time looking at it. At the end of the day someone has to work with it and decide what to look at and what to do, and that persons time is not an infinite resource.

I don't have time to look at every dumpshock post to see if I should ban someone. But the data is all there.... that doesn't help me.

[sabs]

I think you're just not thinking 'pro' enough.
cctv and Facial Recognition software an issue?
Nano disguises
Illusion spells
Adept powers
Plain old disguise abilities.
hats and sunglasses
keeping your head down, knowing where the cameras are.
using drones to hack cameras directly
Technomancers are supremely good at dealing with cameras. They don't care if wifi access is turned off.

gait recognition software a worry?
alter your walking gate.
DNA scanning at crime scenes an issue for you?
genetherapy that makes your cells destroy their DNA information after 6 hours
genetherapy to change your dna, or to make your cells not have a dna marker.

If you look at all the books, there are solutions to all the 'problems'
but certainly you can't be a halloweener troll who carries around a Panzer cannon into downtown Seattle and expect to get away with it.

My dwarf hacker.. his 'distrinctive clothing'
An off the shelf drab brown suit that doesn't really fit. In the meat, he looks like your typical wageslave.

Also, SR is a world where money talks.
Bribes and favors go a long way.

A lone star contact who keeps an eye out for info about you, and does what they can to distort it, and make it dissapear. Or a slow hacker contact who for the right set of favors make some of your records dissapear, make evidence vanish.

Shadowrun is completely playable at that level. Though not for starting characters.
But then starting characters should not really be messing with AAA corps, and HIgh Society/Security Seattle/London/NYC/wherever.

They're in Low Security and Barrens. They're in Chicago, or South America, or in the wilderness.

But if you're getting paid a million each for a data run on Horizon's Headquarters in Downtown LA. I hope you brought your A game.

[sabs]

Just because there is one instance of something possible does not lead to that thing happening in all cases at all times.

Yep, there is tons of data and it could all be found and looked at.

Go for it, spend your time looking at it. At the end of the day someone has to work with it and decide what to look at and what to do, and that persons time is not an infinite resource.

I don't have time to look at every dumpshock post to see if I should ban someone. But the data is all there.... that doesn't help me.

except you're not an Agent, or a set of agents running on a dedicated nexus.
I doubt anyone is comparing Wuxing SiN information with UCAS with CAS with Ares SiN information.
I doubt many people have access to all that stuff. (Though i bet some deep dark black agencies come close.)
But certainly inside Seattle? Lone Star, Seattle Metro Government, etc.
If you do something illegal on your fake Wuxing SiN and it gets recorded, then certainly someone is going to do some information requests to Wuxing Security and Human Resources. How much they get will depend on politics, personal relationships between Lone Star and Wuxing security officers, etc. It's not a guarantee, but the possibility is there.

Hey, You're more than welcome to run a low consequences Pink Mohawk game. But for those of us who like a more cuthtroat realistic game. It's fun to think about all the implications of the technology that exists in Shadowrun.

[KCKitsune]

But anyone who wants to know what you've been upto can just do a scan of cameras/hotspots nearby and see what you've been upto that way.
No record of you at the whorehouse...
...But there is a record of you getting a taxi to that location, and a record of you leaving - as well as cctv of you, probably face tagged.

Makes me VERY glad I took the Erased (10 pts) quality. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Whipstitch]

But for those of us who like a more cuthtroat realistic game

I just really question if it's actually very realistic. Even an Agent needs to have an idea of what it's supposed to be looking for to begin with. In all honesty, surveillance footage is useful largely as a way of convicting rather than of catching. It's easier to confirm an identification so that the jury will believe you when you say you found the right guy than it is to take some picture and figure out who the heck it is with little else to go on.

Really though, it's all a matter of degrees, and I think it's really tough to say just how well such measures could actually be implemented. I would certainly never argue that modern measures in SR4 are completely useless, after all. I just don't think they're as insurmountable as many of my players have suggested they would be in the past. I actually think tagging technology would be a more pernicious enemy than the camera systems. There's reason to believe that the corps don't always have to go by the book to find you and wring some information and possibly your life out of you, after all. It's just finding you without too much fuss to begin with that's their real problem.

[Trevalier]

In addition to data balkanization and SNR issues, there's the fact that the services Mr. Legit is availing himself of know he doesn't want his activities becoming known. For the most discreet establishments (which are the ones high-rollers would patronize), it would not surprise me if they have a staff or contract hacker whose job is to hack the local cameras and keep them hacked. They might even offer video interception/editing as a premium service.

[Mäx]

I think you're just not thinking 'pro' enough.
cctv and Facial Recognition software an issue?
Nano disguises
Illusion spells
Adept powers
Plain old disguise abilities.
hats and sunglasses
keeping your head down, knowing where the cameras are.

None of those actually help if the corps has acces to all thousands of cameras that saw you and can comp thought all that data in no time with agents.
So thats where you "we want our game cuthroat" fail, if you go by the assumption that i lined up there, you can't do anythink to stop them from tracing you all the way back to your save house.
Yeah you avoided 15 cameras and you hacker hacked an other 15 in that one corner of the street, but you still got recorded by 50 cameras.

[KCKitsune]

Also there is that wonderful piece of gear in Arsenal (pg 59). Yup, I'm talking about camera neutralizers. You're a big shot and don't want anyone knowing you're going to THOSE places. For 1500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) you can make it so that NO camera* in the area works. Spend more for mini drones carrying Camera Neutralizers** and you are "invisible" for blocks around.

* == a rating 6 camera neutralizer has 12 dice to detect a camera (threshold 2) and take it out.

** == if you're that damn rich and/or paranoid you can spend the money for something like 10 drones with camera neutralizer and a gun with SnS ammo.

[Caelwyn]

Also there is that wonderful piece of gear in Arsenal (pg 59). Yup, I'm talking about camera neutralizers. You're a big shot and don't want anyone knowing you're going to THOSE places. For 1500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) you can make it so that NO camera* in the area works. Spend more for mini drones carrying Camera Neutralizers** and you are "invisible" for blocks around.

* == a rating 6 camera neutralizer has 12 dice to detect a camera (threshold 2) and take it out.

** == if you're that damn rich and/or paranoid you can spend the money for something like 10 drones with camera neutralizer and a gun with SnS ammo.

They take up sensor capacity 5 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) which means you need at least a small drone and then it can't have any other sensors unless you upgrade capacity. Small are from the size of a toaster to a small dog (+4 to +6 concealability), becoming less and less subtle in actually getting to the camera and taking it out.

[Inpu]

But that's the point, isn't it? That the data is balkanized, that people and corps do not work together on the low or high level, and that there are like a million factions.

The reason you can easily get from point a to point b without everyone knowing your every move is simple: money. It takes quite a bit of it to install cameras and a similar amount to keep them running. Then you have to account for the perceived privacy of those with a SIN and rights and so forth, different privacy laws between nations and the Megas, so on and so on.

I've worked with enough security to know that there are always more cameras than there are recordings. Half the time, cameras are there to intimidate and persuade someone to not do something illegal. A real expert always manages all the same, even with things you might think are impossible. I'll take a modern day example, from a luxury store: drapes come in all shapes and sizes, and a few use massive poles to keep them up. Some can get as long as ten feet. In that particular company, they complained that someone was walking away with their ten foot poles, once a week. They checked the inventory every day to be sure that it matched with sales, kept an eye on the poles, and knew it had to be done in the day.

Yet one disappeared every week for four months. Then it stopped. Guess the fellow decided that had all the window dressings he needed.

A ten foot pole is not easy to miss, by camera or by eye. Security always lags behind the experts.

It's always an easy argument to say "Ah, the setting will just explode if you actually use it", rather than finding a means for it to work. If you want realistic with what they give you, it is easy to see holes in security.

[hobgoblin]

I would imagine that, among other things, Mistress Naughties House of Pain doesn't show up on their customer's SIN as that. Kind of like I'd imagine porn doesn't show up on a credit card as "Giant stack of pornos!!!" Maybe it just shows up as MNHoP or something even less likely to get noticed, like looking like some kind of entertainment channel purchase, and a visit there just registers as something innocuous on any sort of tracking stuff as being bar or restaurant.

That, or maybe it goes on a SIN as privet data that can't be accessed by corps and such. Government could still look at your SIN and tell that you really like big butts ((IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ) but the local stuffer shack isn't going to start suggesting "Bootylicious 5, now with bigger butts!" whenever you go for a soycaf.

reminds me of a story where some online porn company would fail to supply after getting payed, ordered by court to replay, and did so in the form of a mailed checks with their company clearly visible. I do wonder how many of those actually got cashed.

[Inpu]

reminds me of a story where some online porn company would fail to supply after getting payed, ordered by court to replay, and did so in the form of a mailed checks with their company clearly visible. I do wonder how many of those actually got cashed.

That's actually rather hilarious.

Mm, one other thing. Most businesses get around this in a very easy way as well: they are fronted. Olga's Teahouse is a really good example, as is a massage parlor I remember being mentioned. Silver Screen Dreams? I forget the name. Anyways, you'd just be seen getting tea or getting a nice back rub. The tea gets surprisingly expensive there.

[Voran]

Gotta think signal to noise ratio. Office theft is one of the hardest crimes to stop simply because if you don't know when it happened how are you supposed to efficiently figure out who made off with the stapler? Even if the whole building is wired to the gills you'll have far more footage of bullshit than you'll have footage of smoking guns. Was Sheila up to something nefarious or was she just retrieving the post-it notes she gave Bob on Wednesday? Now, imagine you're Lone Star and instead of an office building you're watching the 'plex.

Though with RFIDs in everything, if you're a normal joe who doesn't know to scan/erase tags, it becomes easier to track employees that steal supplies. The guys in the IT department probably steal stuff like crazy though.

[Mäx]

The tea gets surprisingly expensive there.

And the nice think about that is that they're probaply also selling actuall tea that costs as much as upstairs servises, so noone can find anythink wierd in your bank statements, you just happen like good tea.

[Inpu]

And the nice think about that is that they're probaply also selling actuall tea that costs as much as upstairs servises, so noone can find anythink wierd in your bank statements, you just happen like good tea.

Heh, yeah exactly! The middle manager can even say that it is a great way to reduce stress.

[Mäx]

Heh, yeah exactly! The middle manager can even say that it is a great way to reduce stress.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Voran]

Heh, yeah exactly! The middle manager can even say that it is a great way to reduce stress.

I swear, after every ending, I'm happy.

[sabs]

You bring up valid points about authorities just following the cameras back to you.

There are a couple of points:
Firstly, I doubt seriously that there are absolutely no blind spots in the cctv coverage. That 1 tv picks up where the other left off. That's /expensive/. London has mad crazy cctv coverage and even they don't have that blanket of a cover.
Secondly good runners have escape routes, escape plans. They picked out a spot outside of cctv coverage where they stored a change of clothes, maybe a change of disguises. A spot where the mage can change the illusions running on people.

The rigger has a get away vehicle he picked up and modded (or had modded for him). chameleon skin, personal armor, concealed armor, grid link, grid link override. You get away from pursuit, even temporarily, and you change the broadcast ID of your vehicle, you use chameleon coating to change the color/appearance, and you turn gridlink on, blending into the traffic as perfectly legitimate vechile.

Your escape route takes you through low or no security zones, which allows you to get lost in the sinless masses. The amount of CCTV and Drones able to track you is going to be entirely dependent on the communities monthly security contracts to Knight Errant or Lone Star, or DPD, NYPDinc, or whom ever.

Extraterritorial disputes will be your friends. It's not as "omg shadowrunners can't work in SR" it's that Shadowrunners are high end professional criminals who can do things noone else can.

[Inpu]

A good example for Seattle is the ability to duck into the Ork Underground and hop off the grid.

[Karoline]

Oh, this reminds me, I just recently saw something on Discovery about how they are currently working on software that will automatically track a person (in real time) from one camera to another. They already have it working, and showed it tracking a guy through the city (I think it was London, but not sure). The guy was disguised too (Concealing hat, his face fairly obscured, etc. I didn't actually recognize that he was the guy that had been giving the interview and they literally went back and forth between showing him being tracked and him giving the interview).

Now, it had a few requirements like having to take a special picture of the person beforehand, but I'm sure that that could get worked around given the quality of facial recognition.

You are right though, not everywhere is going to be covered, but once again, that was kinda my point. Even those 'pro' people are relying on the fact that everything isn't as well covered as it very easily could be, that companies don't have thousands and thousands of copies of agents running around watching everyone who ever gets within 100 feet of anywhere important, that facial recognition/gait analysis/voice recognition can be easily fooled by pulling down a hat, walking a little different, etc.

[Mäx]

There are a couple of points:
Firstly, I doubt seriously that there are absolutely no blind spots in the cctv coverage. That 1 tv picks up where the other left off. That's /expensive/. London has mad crazy cctv coverage and even they don't have that blanket of a cover.

Sorry i confused you with Synner667, that point was based on his take on the world where those trying to track you have acces to all camaeras around the city,which is most likely number in thousand providing a seamless coverage of the whole town.
Buts that not really a problem in the sixht world thanks to extreme data balkanization.
You dont even have to duck into underground, ducking through propertives belonging to multiple different corps should be enought to lose those trying to trac you through cameras.

[sabs]

Well the problem with that is two fold:

Cross Jurisdictional cooperation
warrants/subpoenas.

Sure, you ducked into a warehouse owned by Toys'n'stuff, do some prestochango and move out again.
That will work for getting rid of your immediate pursuit.

But the investigation afterwards.
Lonestar approaches Toys'n'stuff because their last camera had the runners approching said warehouse.
First, they ask nicely.
"Hey can we take a look at your cameras."
"we have proprietary information. No"
"Well, we're looking for these guys. Can you check your intenal security?"
mm, let me see that. I'll have our guys look.

The guys look.
"Boss we found those runners, looks like they pulled a switcharoo.. and went out the southern entrance."
"okay, put the pictures with any closeups in a packet, and give it to the lonestar detectives."

Now, lets say they're not that friendly.
Lone Star starts talking about 'response time' 'monthly security dues.' etc.
Or if that doesn't work, they go back and get a court order for the information.

Now, Toys'n'stuff might delete that stuff, but they don't have a reason to.

Unless of course, Toys'n'stuff is a front for the Yakuza or the Mafia, or other such things. In which case their cameras might not work at all, or only record to the super secret node, and be 'broken' for public view.

[Doc Chase]

Unless Toys 'n Stuff has extraterritoriality. Then the 'Star is kinda boned.