Stacking Commlinks Options

[Socinus]

Is there a prohibition against stacking commlinks and treeing them off each other?

For instance, could you route your Matrix browsing through two commlinks with rating 6 firewalls to force a hacker to get through two firewalls instead of one?

Also, could you route a Technomancer's signal through a commlink for extra protection?

[Yerameyahu]

The short answer is, you can't. The way the matrix 2.0 works, it doesn't really matter what's in between. Technically, your matrix connection is already being routed through any number of other commlinks and nexi.

The long answer is, you can come up with tricky reasons and convince your GM; the matrix rules are very shaky, so there's lots of room to push.

A TM's bionode is already unhackable.

[Socinus]

A TM's bionode is already unhackable.

Not according to Unwired (pg 135)

[MortVent]

Not according to Unwired (pg 135)

Except by another tm or a sprite

[MortVent]

Is there a prohibition against stacking commlinks and treeing them off each other?

For instance, could you route your Matrix browsing through two commlinks with rating 6 firewalls to force a hacker to get through two firewalls instead of one?

Also, could you route a Technomancer's signal through a commlink for extra protection?

Unwired does have rules or bits in there about proxys

So what you are looking to do is use two commlinks as proxies, best not to have them on the character though (and I would slap an agent/sprite in them to watch over things... make yer own glacier)

[Lanlaorn]

There was something in Unwired about going through corporate nodes/satellites such that anyone trying to trace you would either have to hack the other corporation or call them up and get permission (good luck).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The short answer is, you can't. The way the matrix 2.0 works, it doesn't really matter what's in between. Technically, your matrix connection is already being routed through any number of other commlinks and nexi.

The long answer is, you can come up with tricky reasons and convince your GM; the matrix rules are very shaky, so there's lots of room to push.

A TM's bionode is already unhackable.

Actually there, Yerameyahu, Proxies are the way to go if you are going to do that... it may impact your reesponse a bit (-1 per Proxy) but your tracing stops at the proxy, not at your comlink...

Another way to do that by the rules is to Subscribe multiple Nodes (Individual Comlinks) to a Master Node with no SIgnal range but DNI connections to teh other Nodes (DO NOT Slave them, but Subscribe them)... and then initiate your Hacking attempts from the Subscribed Node/s (Much like a layered network in a way)... Example: Primary Node has 3 Subscribed Nodes (Call them A, B, and C)... I initiate my Hacking from any Node (A, B, or C), it does not really matter which, and proceed from there... to hit your primary node, they must hit one of your outer nodes first (The one you are hacking from obviously, as they are the only ones with a Signal out), and then they must move from the outer node to the inner node to hit your Primary Node and its other subscriptions. Layered Systems work from comlinks just as well as they work from Nexi... The benefit to the layered protocols is that you can employ security on each layered node to protect the next inner layer... makes it very difficult for the Opponent to actually do anything to you quickly, and may eliminate them before they ever reach the central node. Another benefit is that you can have each Node with it's own number of Subscriptions available; you may have to scroll through them by Node, but you can have large amounts of active subscriptions (Assumming that you need large amounts of subscriptions for some reason)...

As for a Bionode... someone already answered that one as well... TM's can hack other TM's Bionodes...

[Yerameyahu]

Dig it, thanks for the Proxy thing.

I'm not sure this 'subscribe and initiate hacking from there' is a real thing, though. Is there a page number? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Because that's exactly what I was talking about. If it's not a Proxy, what exactly are you doing?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Dig it, thanks for the Proxy thing.

I'm not sure this 'subscribe and initiate hacking from there' is a real thing, though. Is there a page number? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Because that's exactly what I was talking about. If it's not a Proxy, what exactly are you doing?

It is no different than a Sytem layered within another system... they talk about such things in unwired a bit. You have a Signal Point into the Matrix (Call it Node A)... Node A connects to its controller (Node B), which is a simple little device that routes information from the inner Network to the outer network, so does not really do much but provide a chokepoint (Which can of course be protected by ICE and Programs like any node)... Node B connects to Node C (Which is a subsystem within the building for distributing connections to the Important Data Server - Node D, and Terminal Users (Nodes G1-G100)... Node C is also Protected like any Node... Now for simplicity sake, we hit Node D the, Memory Core that Matters to your attempted Hack (Also Protected)...

Now, to get to Node D You MUST go through all the nodes previous, so you hit A, hack it, subborn it and then to Node B, then to Node C, and Finally to Node D (you really did not need to acces nodes G1-G100 as they are irrelevant for the example). Node D is where the Data is that will give you the keys to the Large Payout... you cannot get to Node D Directly from the Matrix, it is impossible because it only connects to Node C (of course, you could gain physical access and use Nodes G1-G100, or search until you found Node D physically, but for this example, you are on the network from the Matrix)... now Node C only connects to Node B, and so on...

Pretty simplistic example, so I do apologize. Make Sense?

Anyways, you can do the same with Comlinks, assuming you want to take the time, effort, and resources to do so.

[Yerameyahu]

And doing *that* doesn't cost you Response? :/ That hardly seems fair.

Anyway, the reason this seems so odd to me is that routing is the whole point of the matrix. Your connection to Tokyo goes through possibly hundreds of nodes automatically, whoosh. You can't turn off the Matrix 2.0 automesh even if you want to, I thought. It's not like there's a point where you connect to 'The Matrix'; the entire route is the Matrix.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And doing *that* doesn't cost you Response? :/ That hardly seems fair.

Does not cost response at all... you're not using a Proxy, and the only link that matters initially is the one you are hacking with (Node A in this case)...

Anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Totally unfair, then. How is a Proxy different?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Totally unfair, then. How is a Proxy different?

Not unfair at all... it is a layered system...

A Proxy is more of a redirect that terminates at the Proxy rather than the originating Node... You stop at the Proxy, regardless if there are layers beneath that or not... which is why it is so useful... a layered system that does not use a proxy would be susceptible throughout the system... and I also forgot... Each Proxy Server you use to route your communications imposes a +4 Threshold on being Tracked as well.

You could setup the example I provided as a Proxy (at Node A) if you wanted to do so, and it would work just fine, with a little Response degradation if G1-G100 tried to do anything outside of the Proxy (-1 Response). You would not be able to penetrate the system any further than Node A

They are different system layouts with pros and cons to each version... with a Proxy Setup, you have no other choice but to hack the site behind the Proxy (assuming that you could actually identify it at all, which is why they are very useful); while the Layered (non-Proxy) option means that you would eventually (Probably) penetrate to the areas that you needed, given time... but that is what it takes, Time, and that is something that you may not have...

They are both valid ways of securing a system/node.

[Yerameyahu]

Sure, but where exactly is the con for the layers?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Sure, but where exactly is the con for the layers?

Huh? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Pros and cons? There have to be pros and cons. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) All I see are pros: massively multiplied hacking resistance, no penalty.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Pros and cons? There have to be pros and cons. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) All I see are pros: massively multiplied hacking resistance, no penalty.

You canot totally secure it without taking other steps... it is vulnerable, though with effort... and it is costly, as you must purchase the individual nodes seperately... for example, If my Comlink setup costs 40,000 Nuyen (Not to outrageous with all the various options, I actually created one that ran closer to 70,000 once... Hell, Just baseline 6's cost a fair amount... 8,000 for Response, 3,000 for Signal, 3,000 for System, and 3,000 for Firewall is starting at 17,000 Nuyen alone... adding response enhancers and other high end options rapidly increases the costs of such a Comlink... Nexi are even worse for high end ones), would run me a cool 160,000 Nuyen for the simple system I described, without any software/agents to manage it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Starting Characters will not be able to afford a top of the line Cyberlogician Comlink Setup (Multiple High-End Comlinks configured for maximum efficiency)... it is way beyond their means...

Layering is generally a pretty efficient method for securing a system... it increases the time to penetrate it. Other methods add complexity and cost, and of course, you can mix and match for even more Matrix Security Goodness...

[Yerameyahu]

So, a little extra cost. You don't *need* signal or response enhancers or anything, they're just walls. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's laaame sauce. 14k¥ per 100% increase in defense time, plus IC (pirated, copy-deprotected, duped).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So, a little extra cost. You don't *need* signal or response enhancers or anything, they're just walls. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's laaame sauce. 14k¥ per 100% increase in defense time, plus IC (pirated, copy-deprotected, duped).

Believe what you want, but there is nothing lame about it... The Corps use this schema even in todays market place (I know my Corp does, and I am sure that they are not the only ones) so I am pretty positive that it will continue into the 2070's... it is a perfectly viable tactic for the Hacker of the team... maybe not all runners will have this setup (it is pretty expensive after all), but it does make sense for Ultra High-End Hackers with a fair bit of Karma under their belts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Hell, Proxies are the best in my opinion... a Drop Dead point from which you cannot be further traced back... Yes Please... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Oh, it's not a question of logic. It's a question of game balance. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) In fact, given the cost, the Corps in 2070 should just use this times 1000. Times 10000. Nothing could be hacked before they just physically moved the 'safe' machine… to a new hyper-layered connection, while the first one reboots. And again. And that's not AAAs. That's any company who thinks their data is worth a measly couple hundred thousand nuyen.

It's worse than the old Hack-a-Stack exploit. Yes, logically, the Matrix would be pretty secure, hackers wouldn't be joyriding everywhere. And yes, I see it now on Unwired p73 (Layered Security) (thanks for the page number, hehe). But, it's SR, it's Matrix 2.0, they're *supposed* to be joyriding. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And it's a game, so things should at least pretend to be tradeoffs. Bleh. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Oh, it's not a question of logic. It's a question of game balance. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) In fact, given the cost, the Corps in 2070 should just use this times 1000. Times 10000. Nothing could be hacked before they just physically moved the 'safe' machine… to a new hyper-layered connection. And again. It's worse than the old Hack-a-Stack exploit.

I disagree... this has been the norm for almost every system we have hacked in the game over the last 5 years of SR4... we do not access a node and have everything we want at our fingertips (I am assuming that you do not as well)... we must delve into the system to find the correct node. No different than the original system maps of 2nd edition actually, except that they play out much more quickly (we time hacking actions with Meat Actions and run simultaneously)... hacking is very dynamic in our games... and yes, it does behoove us to penetrate a system ahead of a Run if possible to lay in some access points or whatever else we may need. This is usually a part of Legwork, if it is possible at all...

Again... if you are paying out massive thousands of dollars per Node, you eventually reach a point of diminishing returns. I work for a Multi-Billion Dollar, International Corporation with close to 15,000 employees, and I can tell you that our critical data is heavily protected, but not to the tune of 10,000 layers of protection (or 1,000 or hell, even 100 layers)... that would be ludicrously expensive... But there are enough layers to make hacking the system exceedingly difficult, and likely obvious when attempted, which brings other defenses online as appropriate.

Is it appropriate to have 4-5 layers for a Team Hacker with the experience and money? Yes, it is... would I have a Dozen Layers... not likely... it will be scaled to the appropriate level based upon expereince and resources. Could you get away with a hyper-node with a Single Layer... Probably, until the team of dedicated hackers hit the node and made hash of it... That is a reason that you would use layers if you could. That is the reason that I use multiple layers, because early in my career, I was completely downlined by a team of Hackers/Technomancers... I learned my lesson and improved security significantly over the course of the campaign as I could afford to do so. Now, I am pretty safe from most threats (and that is why I am the sole Tactical Coordinator for the team as well)...

Anyways (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Bleh. That's the point: the old system maps were meant to be slow. In SR4, it shouldn't be that easy for Joe Nobody to be safe, nor *that* hard to get into Joe Somebody's stuff. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Bleh. That's the point: the old system maps were meant to be slow. In SR4, it shouldn't be that easy for Joe Nobody to be safe, nor *that* hard to get into Joe Somebody's stuff. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It still takes time though... those types of security setups are not something that you penetrate in a Turn or two... they take time.

Joe Schmoe with his standard Comlink (98% of the world) will be something that a decent Hacker can get through like a hot knife through butter... the Average Joe Schmoe cannot afford a security setup like that, as it is likely several months to several years of Lifelstyle (Middle) costs just to think about such a thing... most individuals will have a single node, with little to no real security on them. Just like the real world today...

Anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

For some reason, the Zurich Orbital only has an onionskin of 16. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) This is what I'm saying: the game world is designed to be playable.

Well, sure, but the nobodies also don't have good armor or guns or anything. Who cares about them? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) I meant Joe Nobody 400BP Runner, sorry for the confusion.

Again, I'm not saying *you're* wrong. I'm saying BLEH, my game won't have NPCs carrying around 1/3 the security of the (legendarily safe) Zurich Orbital for their TacNets. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mäx]

You can't turn off the Matrix 2.0 automesh even if you want to, I thought.

Ofcource you can, you just rip of the wireless chip from the node and replace it with fibreoptic line to the next node.