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> Infected Essence Loss?
Socinus
post Jul 23 2010, 10:38 PM
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I have a player who is pondering becoming Infected but he has a Magic rating of 6. In the disease summary, it says an Infected's Magic and Essence is reduced to 1.

Now does that mean if he becomes Infected, his Magic will drop from 6 to 1 or remain unchanged?

It seems to me that Infection causes a Magic drop...but I may be missing something that others are aware of. Any input?
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Starmage21
post Jul 23 2010, 11:01 PM
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QUOTE (Socinus @ Jul 23 2010, 05:38 PM) *
I have a player who is pondering becoming Infected but he has a Magic rating of 6. In the disease summary, it says an Infected's Magic and Essence is reduced to 1.

Now does that mean if he becomes Infected, his Magic will drop from 6 to 1 or remain unchanged?

It seems to me that Infection causes a Magic drop...but I may be missing something that others are aware of. Any input?

Becoming infected during play is career suicide for the awakened. You'll effectively burn out due to the essence drain process and wake up infected and stuck at magic 1 because you can't gain any karma.

Now it has been proposed here several times as a house rule that pcs will wake up with as much magic as they had prior to infection. This would allow that pc awakened that get infected remain playable.
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CanRay
post Jul 23 2010, 11:04 PM
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And that much more able to get "Dinner" when hungry. There are a number of HMHVV types that are powerhouses with magic, after all.
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Karoline
post Jul 23 2010, 11:09 PM
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Depends on the kind of infected. Most infected (like ghouls) simply lose one essence as part of the process. This would reduce the mage's magic by 1 just like losing 1 essence to ware.

If you're talking about a vampire or something else that uses essence drain to infect, then yes, the person would lose all 6 points of essence (and thus all 6 points of magic), and then go back up to 1 essence and 1 magic when they finish being infected.

So yeah, becoming infected during play generally sucks for an awakened, becoming a vampire during play for an awakened means they practically have to start over.
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CanRay
post Jul 23 2010, 11:18 PM
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On the bright side, being a Ghoul means never having to say, "I'm sorry"...

For eating your brain.
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Patrick Goodman
post Jul 23 2010, 11:19 PM
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And yes, I'm thinking of ways to make that not so damaging to magic. Makes no sense to me, really, since so many vampires are, in fact, magicians...and sick-crazy-powerful ones, too. No ETA for that, though, so don't hold your breath.
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Socinus
post Jul 23 2010, 11:31 PM
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The player in question is a Dryad who will become a Banshee
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Tanegar
post Jul 23 2010, 11:39 PM
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QUOTE (Starmage21 @ Jul 23 2010, 06:01 PM) *
Becoming infected during play is career suicide for the awakened. You'll effectively burn out due to the essence drain process and wake up infected and stuck at magic 1 because you can't gain any karma.

Now it has been proposed here several times as a house rule that pcs will wake up with as much magic as they had prior to infection. This would allow that pc awakened that get infected remain playable.

OK, I'll bite: why can't Infected PCs gain karma?
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Mordinvan
post Jul 23 2010, 11:51 PM
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QUOTE (Tanegar @ Jul 23 2010, 04:39 PM) *
OK, I'll bite: why can't Infected PCs gain karma?

Because IIRC, by RAW, the PC has to pay the karma cost for the infection, which is about 200 before they can devote any karma to other things. I find the notion of charging the PC because he was attacked and eaten by a vampire to be 'odd' but I don't don't make the rules.
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Starmage21
post Jul 24 2010, 12:09 AM
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QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Jul 23 2010, 06:51 PM) *
Because IIRC, by RAW, the PC has to pay the karma cost for the infection, which is about 200 before they can devote any karma to other things. I find the notion of charging the PC because he was attacked and eaten by a vampire to be 'odd' but I don't don't make the rules.


I suppose the reasoning is that previously, PCs who had been thusly attacked became NPCs. So now for all the nice bonuses your character receives after being so unfortunate, you must pay to continue playing your character.
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Udoshi
post Jul 24 2010, 07:26 AM
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Yeah, the rules on karmic debt are terrible. If you're willing to houserule it, just take half of their karma income until its paid off.
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Mordinvan
post Jul 24 2010, 09:39 AM
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QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jul 24 2010, 01:26 AM) *
Yeah, the rules on karmic debt are terrible. If you're willing to houserule it, just take half of their karma income until its paid off.

Combine needing to pay 200 karma for the 'quality' with needing to pay 100 Karma to get your magic back to 6, and ya, you're pretty much screwed for a good long while.
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Karoline
post Jul 24 2010, 03:05 PM
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QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Jul 24 2010, 04:39 AM) *
Combine needing to pay 200 karma for the 'quality' with needing to pay 100 Karma to get your magic back to 6, and ya, you're pretty much screwed for a good long while.


300 karma later when the other players are virtual gods, you'll have finally caught up to where you were before the vampire attack. Yeah, I'd call that reasonably unplayable as well.
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MortVent
post Jul 24 2010, 04:56 PM
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QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Jul 24 2010, 05:39 AM) *
Combine needing to pay 200 karma for the 'quality' with needing to pay 100 Karma to get your magic back to 6, and ya, you're pretty much screwed for a good long while.


One option for awakened especially is taking disadvantages

Say Geasa for some of the points, but you can also work in mental portions as well (mania/phobia, delusions)

As is the ability to take psychosomatic allergies to things (like a vampire taking one to crosses)


The change isn't just poof you're a vampire, it's something that can leave mental scars and wounds on a character too.
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Karoline
post Jul 24 2010, 04:59 PM
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So you're only 100 karma in the hole for your magic and have 100 BP worth of negative qualities, still sounds rather harsh.
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MortVent
post Jul 24 2010, 05:09 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Jul 24 2010, 12:59 PM) *
So you're only 100 karma in the hole for your magic and have 100 BP worth of negative qualities, still sounds rather harsh.



Life is harsh, the counter is most infected no longer need worry about old age (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) not that many runners do anyway


But yes it's harsh starting out infected, but you got a long time to rebuild and amass power.

All the super strong ones, are not new infected. They are older and have been busy.

Each feeding for a vampire/banshee actually earns Karma in a way. It's a hunt, a short run to get food which means planning, surviving the combat, etc.. and cleaning up afterwards

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Mordinvan
post Jul 25 2010, 12:18 AM
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QUOTE (MortVent @ Jul 24 2010, 11:09 AM) *
Life is harsh, the counter is most infected no longer need worry about old age (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) not that many runners do anyway


But yes it's harsh starting out infected, but you got a long time to rebuild and amass power.

All the super strong ones, are not new infected. They are older and have been busy.

Each feeding for a vampire/banshee actually earns Karma in a way. It's a hunt, a short run to get food which means planning, surviving the combat, etc.. and cleaning up afterwards

feeding isn't as hard as you might think, just need any spirit that can imbue, and you can give anything with blood sapience to feed from.
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Starmage21
post Jul 25 2010, 01:54 AM
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QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Jul 24 2010, 07:18 PM) *
feeding isn't as hard as you might think, just need any spirit that can imbue, and you can give anything with blood sapience to feed from.


Which is super cheesey. Its really not all that difficult to maintain or even abuse your essence drain power during the course of a run on the intended targets.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 25 2010, 02:42 AM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Jul 24 2010, 08:05 AM) *
300 karma later when the other players are virtual gods, you'll have finally caught up to where you were before the vampire attack. Yeah, I'd call that reasonably unplayable as well.


Just a small note... 300 Karma does not make you a virtual god... Hell, with 302 Karma, I still only have 3 skills above a 3 (One at 4, and two at 5)...

Just Sayin'
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Karoline
post Jul 25 2010, 05:22 AM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 24 2010, 09:42 PM) *
Just a small note... 300 Karma does not make you a virtual god... Hell, with 302 Karma, I still only have 3 skills above a 3 (One at 4, and two at 5)...

Just Sayin'


Well, depends on the character. I'd imagine a mage could do alot with 300 karma. Like initiate a half dozen times and raise magic a good 4 points and bind several high grade foci, and have quite a few new spells

I figure a mage with 10 magic, 6 initiations, some rating (I don't know, lets say 6) foci, and basically every spell they want is going to be exceedingly powerful. Maybe not quite a virtual god, but still...
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 25 2010, 02:42 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Jul 24 2010, 11:22 PM) *
Well, depends on the character. I'd imagine a mage could do alot with 300 karma. Like initiate a half dozen times and raise magic a good 4 points and bind several high grade foci, and have quite a few new spells

I figure a mage with 10 magic, 6 initiations, some rating (I don't know, lets say 6) foci, and basically every spell they want is going to be exceedingly powerful. Maybe not quite a virtual god, but still...



Well, I had a Bio Adept at 387 Karma, and he had all skills at 3 (And 3 points of Bio/Cyber)... Put almost all of his points into magic and initiation for 8 Initiations and an additional 8 magic (Of course that was when it was New Stat x 3, and he was powerful, but not what you might expect for an Adept with Magic 11 and Grade 8 Initiate...

A Full on Mage could indeed be impressive, but at 20 Spells per 100 Karma, as well as the costs for Magic Attributes now (Assuming you started at 6 Magic), you would not get all that high I do not think (+3 MAgic Points for 120 Karma Spent, bringing you to a 9 Magic Rating; 3 Initiations Sans Group/Ordeals at another 48 Karma) that you will be where you might think you will be... for a cost of 268 Points, you are only at +20 Spells, +3 Grades Initiated with Metamagic, and +3 Magic... Impressive to be sure, but not a whole lot better than when you started (+3 Dice pools, +3 Greater range for casting/overcasting and 20 more choices for Spells)... statistically, you will likely be one of the more/most powerful Mages in the city, and you will definitely be a Shadowrunner with a lot of Influence (Assuming your table increments your Contacxts throughout the game as you gained the Karma).

Our current Mage has just at 280 Karma or so, and he has 5 Grades of Initiation and a Magic Rating of 6 (Max of 8, he raised it by +3), he has 3 points of Cyber/Bio, and a fairly decent array of spells... really, not a whole lot better than he was before (Those +3 Dice again), but he has some impressive Metamagic abilities, and his counterspelling is pretty good as well... and when he really needs to overcast, well, he does not always take drain from it, though usually he takes a bit...

By Contrast, I am Not currently playing a Mage, but my Cyberlogician is pretty impressive at 302 Karma... He has 4 Skill Groups with either a Rank 1 or 2, all broken because of Specializations. 2 Groups at 3, both broken with specializations and a Skill advanced to a 5 in the Cracking Group (Electronic Warfare), Dodge 2 (Specialized), Perception 5 (Specialized), Navigation 1, Pilot Aircraft (Specialized), Pilot Groundgraft 2, Pilot Watercraft 1, Demolitions 2 (Speicalized), Thrown Weapons 2 (Specialized), Unarmed Combat 4 (Specialized), Cybertech 1 (Specialized), Forgery 3 (Specialized), Intimidation 2 (Specialized), Parachuting 1 (Specialized), Diving 1 (Specialized), Aero Mechanic (Specialized), and Auto Mechanic (Specialized)... I have a slew of Knowledge Skills ranging from 1-3 (All with Speicalizations), and I have Enough Delta Grade Cyberware, Normal Bioware, and some Geneware to reduce me to 0.045 Essence Remaining. I have 220 Combined points of Contacts throughout the Asian Rergion (We operates out of Hong Kong)... He is a very influential and powerful character, there is no doubt. But I still only throw 9 Dice for Hacking; and my combat pools are around 12-14 Dice before any bonuses for Tactical Network... In a pinch, he can control a massive amount of Drones, or Subscriptions while accompanying the team, or even more if in his Command Vehicle (Got to Love High End Nexi...). I tend to program my own software, generally rush jobs (17 Dice/19 for ARE Programs) with an Environment for /4 Time frames. He is powerful, but definitely not a Hacking God as you can see... But man is he a LOT of fun to play.

300 Karma Can change the game that much, but in the end, unless you design your character with that 300 Karma from the Start, you will notice that the organic nature of incremental builds does not turn out the same as the Spend it all at once character build does. There is always something else that you end up needing...

Anyways...
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Karoline
post Jul 25 2010, 03:00 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 25 2010, 09:42 AM) *
300 Karma does change the game that much, but in the end, unless you design your character with that 300 Karma from the Start, you will notice that the organic nature of incremental builds does not turn out the same as the Spend it all at once character build does. There is always something else that you end up needing...

Anyways...


Yeah, that's likely the biggest difference right there. It is easy to make a 400BP + 300 karma character that is really powerful, it is somewhat harder to make a 400BP character that has gained 300 karma quite as powerful (Though the gap won't be massive). I can already feel it in my bones with a TM that I've just started playing. I keep thinking "Oh, first thing I want to do with my karma is submerge a couple more times and raise resonance another point." but then I look over my character sheet and go "Right after I pick up influence group, and another rating in my electronics group, and maybe my hacking group... and another point of agi and rea wouldn't hurt for physical stuff.." and very quickly that resonance upgrade gets pushed back to when I've gotten 100+ karma.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 25 2010, 03:05 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Jul 25 2010, 09:00 AM) *
Yeah, that's likely the biggest difference right there. It is easy to make a 400BP + 300 karma character that is really powerful, it is somewhat harder to make a 400BP character that has gained 300 karma quite as powerful (Though the gap won't be massive). I can already feel it in my bones with a TM that I've just started playing. I keep thinking "Oh, first thing I want to do with my karma is submerge a couple more times and raise resonance another point." but then I look over my character sheet and go "Right after I pick up influence group, and another rating in my electronics group, and maybe my hacking group... and another point of agi and rea wouldn't hurt for physical stuff.." and very quickly that resonance upgrade gets pushed back to when I've gotten 100+ karma.


Indeed... that is the most telling difference in my experience... Ther is ALWAYS something else to buy and I'll just get that resonance upgrade NEXT time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)
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Karoline
post Jul 25 2010, 03:11 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 25 2010, 10:05 AM) *
Indeed... that is the most telling difference in my experience... Ther is ALWAYS something else to buy and I'll just get that resonance upgrade NEXT time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)


Especially since by the time you have enough karma for the resonance upgrade, you have enough karma for about a half dozen other upgrades. Oh, speaking of which, I also have plenty of specs I need to buy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 25 2010, 03:33 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Jul 25 2010, 09:11 AM) *
Especially since by the time you have enough karma for the resonance upgrade, you have enough karma for about a half dozen other upgrades. Oh, speaking of which, I also have plenty of specs I need to buy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)


Yeah... I can't tell you how many times I was saving for a big purchase to have that Karma disappear when something more important came along... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

Specilaizations are an always important bit for differentiating a character I think... your choices of Specialization really make you stand out (whether the choices are optimized or not) in my opinion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
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