Powergaming, ...where do you draw the line Options

[Machiavelli]

I have a little problem and i hope you can help me with your opinions: my GM hates powergaming and therefore stands in our way (especially in the way of awakened chars.) every time he fears our development could go in this direction.

Unfortunately (for me) i am playing a black mage whose whole intention or better "meaning of existance" is to become more powerful. Up to now the GM only hindered us by becoming initiates, at least make it a very time-intensíve process ("waiting time of one year realtime minimum"). But in the meantime he bought the new core-books "dawn of the articfacts" and "ghost cartels" which made him (finally) clear that initiation is nothing exceptional anymore. In comparison with the potential enemies in these books, our awakened chars. look like beginners (even though the already earned around 100 karma).

Suddenly he told us we should initiate as quick as possible to stand a little chance agaings the future dangers. So far so good, but i would´t be a good black mage if that would be my real and final goal. I am looking forward becoming infected or establish a spirit pact with a powerful free spirit. But things like that are suddenly again too much "powergaming". I also tried to go another way by becoming "powerful" through financial power. So i saved all my earned money, searched for a fixer that could sell an magical-laboratory and spent a lot of time to create orichalcum. As i wanted to sell it, he offered me only a quarter of the value and finally we lost everything becaue the whole orichalcum was stolen. His explanation for this was "i don´t want superchars in my game".

Now i really have to say, that i am lacking perspectives for my character to develop. I was going to get the metatechnique of fastening, but i don´t think that several high-power spells made permanent on my char. are less "powergaming" than becoming infected or whatever. My replacement char. on the other hand, is a mage with a possession-tradition that is specialized in summoning and is running around with maximum physical attributes and 12 points of hardened armor all the time...and no word of powergaming.

Maybe i am too focused on my point of view, therefore i need some other opinions. Thank you.

[Lanlaorn]

Your GM is just outright insane. One year realtime of sessions before you can initiate? Goddamn!

Just point out his crazy bullshit doesn't prevent powergaming, it just changes what you need to do to powergame. As you mentioned, cockblocking initiation? Ok, your Possession based summoner is overpowered right out of the box, no need to initiate.

At the very least get him to explain why he thinks your characters being badasses is somehow wrong.

[Neraph]

I'm sorry to sound like the broken record of first responders, but your GM is a bad GM and you should seek a new one.

That said, and barring that, I would need to see your character and his spare karma to get ideas. Don't forget long-term binding, giving you really interesting power options, and take a look at my spirit thread linked in my signature for more ideas. Bloodmourne would help you out tremendously.

Also, Possession spirits increase the "base" attribute, also increasing the augmented maximum. So a human with a F6 spirit possessing him has 7/12(18) max stats.

EDIT: And if you were wondering... I've not seen a line that I wouldn't cross in "powergaming." The term itself is very nebulous - what it means to one person is not what it means to another. For example, having 30+ armor may be powergaming to one, where to another that's considered stock. Or starting from chargen with 6 Magic is powergaming to one, while to another being able to hit 10 from chargen is standard for another.

[Khyron]

My GM's powergaming line is the 20 die cap. But anyways, it may sound like your GM may not be fully aware of how SR scales power wise. It's not like say, d&d where you can start conquering cities at level 10. It's still a very lethal game if you screw up no matter how powerful you are.

[Machiavelli]

I think this is the basic difference between powergamers and "norms". I, as a powergamer, think that the more powerful my char. is, the higher is the chance that i stay alive AND keep my fellowers alive. But i can also think that it makes the work of a GM harder because he cannot attack with standard grunts anymore. It would be like everybody would be a Ryanthusar, and we have to be honest, nobody liked this ass.^^

Anyway it don´t make sense refusing a player becoming a vampire during play (we know that it f***s with magic, and i PAY for it, a LOT, and no GM should rule what i do with MY karma that i have earned with blood and sweat) while a common first-day-of-play voodoo-priest outclasses my char in every way.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm sorry to sound like the broken record of first responders, but your GM is a bad GM and you should seek a new one.

That said, and barring that, I would need to see your character and his spare karma to get ideas. Don't forget long-term binding, giving you really interesting power options, and take a look at my spirit thread linked in my signature for more ideas. Bloodmourne would help you out tremendously.

Also, Possession spirits increase the "base" attribute, also increasing the augmented maximum. So a human with a F6 spirit possessing him has 7/12(18) max stats.

Just so it is said... Your interpretation on Attributes with Possession Spirits is only an interpretation (and possibly flawed), and is hotly contested here on Dumpshock. The general consensus is that Possession still caps the Attributes at Metatype maximums, regardless of the spirits power (for example, Human maximum stat is a 9 in all stats)... not everyone agrees with this (I know that you do not), but I did want to point this out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Machiavelli]

Isn´t this problem already and OFFICALLY cleared via the newest errata on the official homepage? You are still limited to your races maximum attributes...but anyway, there is no other way to boost all your physical attributes at ONCE, neither with magic not with cyber or bioware.

[Mantis]

I would agree with the others. Your GM seems a very restrictive with his interpretation of power gaming. I generally classify power gaming based on the whole party. If everyone in the group is going to play 'over the top munchkins' or vampire mages or whatever, you just scale the threat to reflect that. The only time I really take issue with power gaming is when it is just one player doing it. The scope of the campaign should be set out at the beginning and having one player trying to exceed that while the others stay with in it makes things unfun for the other players and leads to disappointment on the part of the power gamer. Best to set out the limits at the beginning and make your characters based on what power level the campaign is going for. You can always change it later.

[Summerstorm]

Yeah, i agree: sounds bad.

I for example have a player who REALLY likes his powergaming too. But the thing in SR is: There is ALWAYS a way to get people. And there are right and wrong things to do as a gm.

For example: My people earn a lot of karma. They were doing run after run without any vacation or anything. So the mage (a maxed pixie) had enough karma to initiate after a month and then a few weeks after that again. I as a gm always said: Hm, maybe you want to save karma to raise magic, maybe learn dodge or get your physical attributes higher? He didn't do it, fine. So let him have his dozens of initiations... he still can't dodge a bullet except with his edge. Sure a powergaming magician murders his way through thousands of people and overshadows the whole group. (The pixie has 4 IP's and dishes out normaly rating 7 stunbolts with no drain - pretty much dropping one opponent per IP - BUT that is his choice, not mine)

I on the other hand will, when it is realistic, get back at him. Everything has consequences, and being the most dangerous thing in the whole plex has a lot of disadvantages.

Your gm should let you do your thing and not invent horrible unfair limits or maliciously trying to damage you. BUT ALSO: selling unlicensed orichalcum out of your lab may get some reactions. Also yes, you may be forced to sell for less, of course. But just saying: Meh, nobody will buy unless you go down to 1/4 is bullshit. The whole thing with the initiation: BAH... a YEAR? I mean, yeah i always needs to enforce a bit time on my pixie too. But i at least say: one month, or until you have learned something significant about magic and yourself. (An extensive meta-quest for example)

[Neraph]

Can't find it, it's probably in Digital Grimiore, but there's a line of text that states that possessing spirits increase the target's attributes and maximums. And yeah, I know it's hotly debated. This is Dumpshock - everything is hotly debated.

[Neraph]

Isn´t this problem already and OFFICALLY cleared via the newest errata on the official homepage? You are still limited to your races maximum attributes...but anyway, there is no other way to boost all your physical attributes at ONCE, neither with magic not with cyber or bioware.

(Critter) Form/Shapeshift.

[Machiavelli]

@Neraph: 100% agree.^^
@Summerstorm: this is also my intention. I just like the feeling that "I" know that i am more powerful than most of my competitors, but we all know that it is a very bad idea to draw too much attention on you. There is always somebody more powerful than yourself.

But anyway, i play a role-playing-game, and if i didn´t understand something terribly wrong, character development and the fact that "i" decide what my char. is doing, is one if not THE basics of an RPG. If i cannot do that, i don´t have to play one.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Isn´t this problem already and OFFICALLY cleared via the newest errata on the official homepage? You are still limited to your races maximum attributes...but anyway, there is no other way to boost all your physical attributes at ONCE, neither with magic not with cyber or bioware.

Well, it is not an Errata, it is a FAQ... But yes, that is the argument anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

And Critter Form/Shapechange is very good indeed for Stat Boosts...

[Machiavelli]

(Critter) Form/Shapeshift.

right, the obilgatory exception to the rule.^^

[Machiavelli]

Well, it is not an Errata, it is a FAQ... But yes, that is the argument anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Erratta....FAQ....baaaah....it is official... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarrassed.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Erratta....FAQ....baaaah....it is official... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarrassed.gif)

Heheheh... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Machiavelli]

That said, and barring that, I would need to see your character and his spare karma to get ideas. Don't forget long-term binding, giving you really interesting power options, and take a look at my spirit thread linked in my signature for more ideas. Bloodmourne would help you out tremendously.

Here is my char. If THAT is powergaming, the term really has changed since i play SR ^^

Here´s my char. I don´t have anything in mind, but i think you can get a clue:

Race: Elf
Class: Mystical Adept
Tradition: Black Mage
Mentor Spirit: Dark Goddess (+2 on combat and healing spells)

Body: 3
Strenght: 1
Agility: 2
Reaction: 2

Willpower: 5
Logic: 2
Charisma: 7
Intuition: 5

Magic: 6 (1 point dedicated to adept powers, rest to magic)
Edge: 2

Spells:
Manabolt
Manaball
Fireball
Imp. Invisibility
Physical Mask
Levitation
Detect Life
Heal
Prophylaxis
Armor
...and some more. Can´t remember them all.

Skills:

Summoning (Fire-spirits): 5(+2)
Binding (Fire-spirits): 5(+2)
Spellcasting (Manipulation): 5(+2)
Counterspelling (Combat): 5(+2)
Astral Combat: 1
Perception: 4
Arkana: 1
dontknowtheskillname (Alchemy): 2(+2)
Influence skillgroup: 1
- raised negotiation (bargaining): 2(+2)

Adept powers:
- Astral perception

[Stahlseele]

There is no power-gaming, as long as it's fun for everybody and you don't overshadow the others, as long as you don't whine if someone else finds a way to deal with you.
That said, your GM is a dick. First only offering you a QUARTER of what your Orcichalcum was worth and then simply having it STOLEN probably witohut giving you a say about the matter by playing it out either . . Then telling you that he does not want strong characters in his game, even though he KNOWS your characters are too weak . . Try and accuse him of Power-Gaming himself on the GM side. Just to see his reaction . . he's probably launch into a gread old tirade about how he is not a roll-player, but a role-player, someone who is pure in the ways of gaming and all that shit . .
Kill of your one character, make your other character somehow gain possession of all of the old ones stuff . . now THERE is some serious power-gaming . .
It's akin to making a new character, get everything in ressources and pour it into buying something like gold or diamonds, then leaving a map for another character where to find it and sending the first character somewhere to die . . but not as bad of course . .

Long story short:
I draw the line where it's not fun anymore for someone i am playing with . .
Be it the GM or another character. Only exception is, when i deliberately want to be a bit mean to someone for whatever reason.
And then i am not doing it constantly.

[Semerkhet]

I, as a powergamer, think that the more powerful my char. is, the higher is the chance that i stay alive AND keep my fellowers alive. But i can also think that it makes the work of a GM harder because he cannot attack with standard grunts anymore. It would be like everybody would be a Ryanthusar, and we have to be honest, nobody liked this ass.^

I think this is the key statement. Really, the more powerful you and your teammates become the more powerful your adversaries become. Being more powerful doesn't really mean that you have a higher chance of staying alive. The threat should be adjusted to match the power level of the characters. The upshot of a game with more powerful characters is that you really can't tell certain types of stories anymore. Many mission types just don't make any sense and would never pay the kind of money that a team of powerful baddasses would demand. Maybe your GM wants to tell the kind of stories that only happen when the game is more 'street.'

The fundamental problem here sounds like you want to play one kind of SR game and your GM wants to play an entirely different kind. The current contest between you and your GM sounds like no fun at all. Neither of you gets the kind of play you want to see. The whole situation sounds unpleasantly adversarial and will only be solved when the players and the GM come to a compromise about the style of SR game they want to participate in.

Do the other players want to have a high power game and the GM is the only hold-out? Neither of you is wrong, but you have to talk this out or find a different GM.

[Rand]

First: It does seem as though your GM has had bad experiences in the past with "power-creep" and he has gotten seriously - SERIOUSLY - gun shy of powerful characters. But, that said, he doesn't seem to be too bright if he thinks that you possession tradition mage with a Force-6 spirit is not powerful (that Hardened Armor of 12 is rough). We found that out when we tried a "high-powered" game a few years ago.

He just needs to remember one thing: the GM can always pull out bigger "guns." When it is a PC vs GM thing (something it should never, ever become) the GM will win out everytime.

[Stahlseele]

As seen by the bad example of the GM simply stealing something from the character that the player worked long and hard for to obtain . .

[tete]

I have a little problem and i hope you can help me with your opinions: my GM hates powergaming and therefore stands in our way (especially in the way of awakened chars.) every time he fears our development could go in this direction.
...

Maybe i am too focused on my point of view, therefore i need some other opinions. Thank you.

Compare your dice pools to other PCs. If your more than 3 dice over their highest die pools, tone it down. Its very easy in 4e to outshine other characters buy spending your improvements better than the other guys. To some extent this has always been true. Magic I think is potentially way more powerful than past editions on starting characters but balances out more over time (overcasting, swingy spirit summoning and mind magic). Perhaps your GM just isn't comfortable enough with 4e to know how to put challenges in front of you without messing up the rest of the party.

[Ryu]

The reaction your GM shows is appropiate for stuff like your replacement character. The specimen submitted here is clearly minmaxed (not a bad idea for BP gen chars), but hardly powergaming.

The primary dicepools are a bit low, compared to the stuff you should be able to do but can´t. Levitate is not a replacement for Athletics, as it has to be sustained.
Improved Invisibility is no full repleacement for Infiltration.
Each time you are attacked, you will also be hit. Many Street Samurai will have a Reaction attribute on par with your base initiative. Which does not get better with body 3. Suppressive fire is not kind to those with lowish armor, low Reaction, and no Edge to speak of.

You do have decent damage output with solid drain resistance. A powergaming mage would have Magic 5, the Magician quality, and 20 BP worth of foci.

[Mesh]

Try to avoid framing this as "power-gamer vs. GM", and keep in mind that out of everyone sitting at the table, the guy who's putting the most effort and work into the game doesn't even get to play.

What you need is an honest and open discussion that is not adversarial. Talk it out. You have needs and desires in Shadowrun, and so does your GM. Where do those meet and overlap?

Mesh

[MortVent]

I would try to have a chat with the gm

Sounds a lot like one I delt with... you pretty much developed your character his way for the game or left.

I finally left after asking him if I didn't get the script for the game, since he wanted us to act and do things in a specific manner rather than develop our own characters.