Dealing with Magic, Control emotions Options

[Androcomputus]

Simply put, How does a GM handle a play invoking "love" into a Mr.Johnson? The Job was for 2000 and I allowed him, in combination with a high negotiation to raise it to 2500 and drinks...

Should this add to the notoriety of the offending player as Johnsons seemingly lose their "cool" and fall in love with this PC?

In addition how does a GM deal with pornomancers without taking away from what the player invested in? (granted the player is only running ≈16 dice for negotiation instead of 40)

[kzt]

The PC will find out that things don't work like that. Control emotions doesn't make people fall in love with YOU, it just creates the emotion of love. Plus CE typically wears off darn fast even when sustained. Influence can make someone think they love you, but it takes a Free Spirit to really go completely to town with that, as the power is a lot more powerful than the spell. Now if the PC had cleverly used influence and control emotions, then....

As to how to handle them, my game banned all the "Control" spells, they are just another giant "I win" button for the mages.

[Doc Chaos]

As to how to handle them, my game banned all the "Control" spells

+1

I wouldn't call the spells broken by design, but they simply take way to much interaction and legwork away, for my taste.

[Saint Sithney]

It takes very little in the way of perception to notice someone casting a spell.
Johnson will see the magic and know what was up when it wears off.

Not something I would recommend.

[Mäx]

It takes very little in the way of perception to notice someone casting a spell.
Johnson will see the magic and know what was up when it wears off.

Thats not a broplem anymore then, as the Jonhson bodyguards would just most likely shoot the idiot mage full of holes, if he tryed somethink as stupid as using spells on their boss.

[Saint Sithney]

Aye, though I did forget that you could probably get away with a Force 2 or so if Mr. J isn't protected by counter-spelling. That's a threshold of 4 to notice it, which takes some work.

But, yeah, casting spells on your employer is an Actionable Offense, and Mr. J will have his people file an Injunction straight to your dome-piece.

[Lansdren]

+1

I wouldn't call the spells broken by design, but they simply take way to much interaction and legwork away, for my taste.

I have to disagree, The control set of spells while powerful in the short term are very limited in the long and very bad for the mage in the even longer term. We are talking about spells which carry very negative reputation for a mage to use. The runners contacts and even team should be getting weary of any mage using that kind of mojo. There is plenty of stuff which can mess a mage up who is doing the whole mind rape thing, basic destruction is far less of a concern generally to most people then a mage who can read and influence their thoughts.

[Doc Chaos]

Nothing I'd disagree with in your post. I just removed something from the game which will make a lot of situations to easy in the short run and the character hated by lots and lots of people (and thus be either unplayable, dead, or constantly on the move) in the long run. Doesn't work with my play/GM style.

[Lansdren]

Nothing I'd disagree with in your post. I just removed something from the game which will make a lot of situations to easy in the short run and the character hated by lots and lots of people (and thus be either unplayable, dead, or constantly on the move) in the long run. Doesn't work with my play/GM style.

Sounds fair, sorry if I went off on one abit I just cant see why people are so hot against some of the magic side, its powerfull but only if you dont show the role play reactions and responses. In a world where guns are normal magic is scary and gets a stronger response. If people spent the same amount of effort being clever with magic response as they do to dealing with tank trolls and stacked defenses magic would seem very small and unimportant

[Doc Chaos]

No offence taken (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) We discussed this in basically every group I ever played in and so far everybody always agreed to take them out. I think its mostly not even because those spells are rather powerful, but because they introduce a certain aspect people are uncomfortable with. Your thoughts and feelings belong to noone but yourself and getting that taken away from you (even for short periods) is, as you pointed out, reaaaally scary.

[Smokeskin]

Sounds fair, sorry if I went off on one abit I just cant see why people are so hot against some of the magic side, its powerfull but only if you dont show the role play reactions and responses. In a world where guns are normal magic is scary and gets a stronger response. If people spent the same amount of effort being clever with magic response as they do to dealing with tank trolls and stacked defenses magic would seem very small and unimportant

No.

Say you take some IT security guy hostage to get him to give your team administrator access somewhere. With Control Thoughts, it is nothing but a dice roll. Doing it the conventional way with getting him to cooperate throught threats or bribes, you have to be creative, worry about him setting off covert alarms, etc.

Interrogate someone the traditional way, even if everyone breaks eventually, it takes time and you have to worry about him feeding you false information. With Mind Probe, you have no such worry, again just a dice roll.

Area Thought Recognition, and you'll break any ambush or tailing attempt.

Mind spells are just plain and simply broken in terms of what they do to story lines. When almost anyone can be made to serve you or tell you everything they know, most plots just won't work.

[Lansdren]

No.

Say you take some IT security guy hostage to get him to give your team administrator access somewhere. With Control Thoughts, it is nothing but a dice roll. Doing it the conventional way with getting him to cooperate throught threats or bribes, you have to be creative, worry about him setting off covert alarms, etc.

Interrogate someone the traditional way, even if everyone breaks eventually, it takes time and you have to worry about him feeding you false information. With Mind Probe, you have no such worry, again just a dice roll.

Area Thought Recognition, and you'll break any ambush or tailing attempt.

Mind spells are just plain and simply broken in terms of what they do to story lines. When almost anyone can be made to serve you or tell you everything they know, most plots just won't work.

your missing the point, that kind of end to a situation should be for time limited / very important stuff because the response to you pulling it should be massive.

You can either break in a door quietly by letting the infiltrator take the time to remove the maglock check for traps deactivate the alarms and get in (in about ten mins) or you can use the emergency door of a shaped charge. Which one will get you noticed?

You can either interrogate someone like a pro, threats and the like and take the time or smash their mind and get it done quick. But this will be a major change in the response to you, just accessing what you need for the job might be believed if you just tortured the guy for a access code but if you have mind raped him what else have you got? The corp will be out for you even more due to the escalation of violence / effect. Add on the previously mentioned RP side of it. If your in a group who are happy that the mage can mess with your mind like anyone elses your not paranoid enough.

[Traul]

You can either interrogate someone like a pro, threats and the like and take the time or smash their mind and get it done quick.

This is not analog to the infiltration case above. Abduction and interrogation are not subtle either. For subtle methods you can try the honey pot or other social engineering tricks.

But this will be a major change in the response to you, just accessing what you need for the job might be believed if you just tortured the guy for a access code but if you have mind raped him what else have you got? The corp will be out for you even more due to the escalation of violence / effect.

I am not sure to understand this right. Are you saying that mind manipulation spells are considered as worse than torture?

[Lansdren]

This is not analog to the infiltration case above. Abduction and interrogation are not subtle either. For subtle methods you can try the honey pot or other social engineering tricks.

I am not sure to understand this right. Are you saying that mind manipulation spells are considered as worse than torture?

I would have said on par, but depends who you ask really. The man on the street might say the mind stuff is scarier because he can contemplate it happening to him where as being abducted and tortured might seem unthinkable because its just not part of his mindset. But I would say the books have implied in the fluff / shadow talk that the mind control side of magic is a major no no and warrants a heavy response.

[Wasabi]

A bodyguard (or johnson or astral bodyguard or spirit covering the johnson) with astral perception can pretty easily see if a spell is on someone. The one exception is Extended Masking. Warding the room will have a chance to disrupt active spells and wards can also be specialized so they are harder to see like Polarized Wards and Trap Wards. A smart Johnson disrupts sustained spells on those entering the meet and has perceptive bodyguards able to easily notice spellcasting within the room.

[Doc Chaos]

Because it kind of went under...

In addition how does a GM deal with pornomancers without taking away from what the player invested in? (granted the player is only running ≈16 dice for negotiation instead of 40)

If you don't know how to deal with something, talk to the player during character creation. Tell him you wouldn't know how to handle his 'concept' and if he can't tell you it'd be better if he played something else. Thats what I'd do, because I don't have a clue as how to counter something like that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

A bodyguard (or johnson or astral bodyguard or spirit covering the johnson) with astral perception can pretty easily see if a spell is on someone. The one exception is Extended Masking. Warding the room will have a chance to disrupt active spells and wards can also be specialized so they are harder to see like Polarized Wards and Trap Wards. A smart Johnson disrupts sustained spells on those entering the meet and has perceptive bodyguards able to easily notice spellcasting within the room.

Smart Johnsons also make sure that Mages who put spells on them either never work again, or are very, very sorry for what they did. So sorry they will never even think about doing it again.

[Wasabi]

If a social character is amazingly good at talking but they get the job done it strikes me as bad a thing as hiring a swordsman who is amazingly good with a sword. You hire professionals so they cost. If they get the job done on time and to spec they are good professionals.

Thats not to say a Johnson wont come down hard on people manipulating him but if the only angle the players are running is talking-up the Johnson I see the only valid limiter as the budget the Johnson has to work with. If a Pornomancer gets 40 hits and the johnson gets 5 hits the payout cant be more than the johnson has budgeted. Capping dice pools using the optional SR4A rule (in the sidebar) at the higher of 20 or (skill+Att)*2 is a good limiter as well.

[Doc Chaos]

Agreed. From the OP I got the impression though that said character breaks his group dynamics.

P.S.: Your signature made me bleed into my brain...

[Smokeskin]

I would have said on par, but depends who you ask really. The man on the street might say the mind stuff is scarier because he can contemplate it happening to him where as being abducted and tortured might seem unthinkable because its just not part of his mindset. But I would say the books have implied in the fluff / shadow talk that the mind control side of magic is a major no no and warrants a heavy response.

If mindrape is that much worse than torture, then it goes into a category like twisted magic that PCs generally don't get to dabble in either.

[MortVent]

I had one mage player try it... Mr Entrich was not amused... and team needed a new mage.

[Mäx]

Capping dice pools using the optional SR4A rule (in the sidebar) at the higher of 20 or (skill+Att)*2 is a good limiter as well.

Considering that OP:s "pornomancer" had only 16 dice that doesn't help much (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
Nor is that really a limit for a true pornomancer either, Charisma 10 + negotions 10 makes the limit 40 dice.

[Doc Chaos]

I had one mage player try it... Mr Entrich was not amused... and team needed a new mage.

Astonishing how somebody that stupid even made it to the meeting alive.

[MortVent]

Astonishing how somebody that stupid even made it to the meeting alive.

Well you got to remember siad Mr J has very very good masking of his aura

[Doc Chaos]

I was refering to a Mage who made it long enough as a runner to be invited by Enterich to work for him and yet be stupid enough to try a stunt like that on his soon to be employer (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[MortVent]

I was refering to a Mage who made it long enough as a runner to be invited by Enterich to work for him and yet be stupid enough to try a stunt like that on his soon to be employer (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well in this case it was a major screw up on a group of newbie runner's part... they ran against SK and FUBAR'd the run in ways that defy description..

Including damaging a building to the point it needed to be demolished and rebuilt, they were being offered a suicide run vs Aztechnology with orders for max collateral damage and noise..

They were not supposed to make it out, and if they did the dragon would consider it even. The payment would be survial if they made it out alive, nothing more.