Concerning power foci, fluff or RAW? Options

[Laodicea]

There's some language in the description for power foci on SR4A, pg 200, which might be a little ambiguous.

Power foci are the most potent and treasured of all. Possession of a
power focus feeds a magician’s Magic directly, making her efforts more
powerful in all forms of magical ability. A power focus adds its Force
to all tests in which the magician’s Magic is included. A single power
focus can increase a magician’s ability to cast spells, call on and control
spirits, and bypass astral barriers. A power focus does not help in
Counterspelling a hostile spell as it is cast, nor can it duplicate the
unique ability of a weapon focus.

The first 2 sentences seem like they are probably just fluff. But maybe they're not. If they're taken as rules, and not fluff, does this mean that it actually raises the magicians magic attribute? Can the magician then cast higher force, up to their magic + power focus rating, without overcasting? This would certainly be powerful, and would indeed make them "the most potent and treasured of all."

Thoughts?

[Emy]

The first two sentences are utter nonsense if you try to interpret them as crunch. There are no rules for "feeding" Magic. So you're trying to interpret "feeds a magician's Magic directly" as meaning "increases a magician's Magic". The two phrases are not equivalent. One has actual rules meaning, and the other does not.

Nice try.

[Tanegar]

A power focus adds its Force to all tests in which the magician’s Magic is included.

The passage you quoted already describes the manner in which a power focus "feeds" its owner's Magic.

[Laodicea]

The first two sentences are utter nonsense if you try to interpret them as crunch. There are no rules for "feeding" Magic. So you're trying to interpret "feeds a magician's Magic directly" as meaning "increases a magician's Magic". The two phrases are not equivalent. One has actual rules meaning, and the other does not.

Nice try.

I pretty much already stated that I agreed with the interpretation that has the first two sentences as fluff. I have no idea what you mean when you say "Nice try.", but it sounds like you're being a prick.

[Emy]

I pretty much already stated that I agreed with the interpretation that has the first two sentences as fluff. I have no idea what you mean when you say "Nice try.", but it sounds like you're being a prick.

No, I literally mean that it was a nice try. I always appreciate people trying to come up with crazy stuff, even if it doesn't always work out. Sometimes it does work out, or inspires an investigation of a different part of the rules, leading to something else either good or interesting.

[Laodicea]

No, I literally mean that it was a nice try. I always appreciate people trying to come up with crazy stuff, even if it doesn't always work out. Sometimes it does work out, or inspires an investigation of a different part of the rules, leading to something else either good or interesting.

Fair enough. My apologies.

[jakephillips]

It does not add to the magic stat for the purposes of what force of spell or spirit will cause physical damage.

It does add its rating in dice to EVERY test that includes rolling magic. So if you are casting a spell and normally roll 10 dice and you have a power focus 3 you roll 13 dice. Helps with summoning as well any time you roll your magic attribute your roll additional dice for your power focus.

[KarmaInferno]

The rules do not state that it adds to the Magic Rating, but by adding to all Magic tests, it's effectively almost the same thing. The major difference being any non-test stuff that depends on your Magic Rating is unaffected by a Power Focus.

In previous editions of SR, Power Foci DID add directly to the magic rating.




-karma

[Dreadlord]

In a sense, it would be a step backwards if you read it as directly adding to Magic.
If you read it as most people do, that it adds dice to the test as a modifier, this means you can add the Power Focus to EACH spell of a multi-casting after the dice-pool split, so in effect it counts as MULTIPLE dice to the test in that one case!
Otherwise, as you postulate, it would add to the Magic stat ONCE, and then be split.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Laodicea]

In previous editions of SR, Power Foci DID add directly to the magic rating.

-karma

This fact is what lead me to question it in the first place.

[SpellBinder]

Way I read it, a power focus adds its rating to the force of the spell you cast which means you cast a spell at force 5 with a force 3 power focus, you still roll your Spellcasting + Magic as normal but can get 8 hits instead of 5, you resist drain as if you had cast the spell at a force of 5 (before it's modified by the spell), and if it's a combat spell is based off a force of 8 for damage results and such.

[Rand]

OK, so I have read it as adding to your Magic attribute directly. To be able to use the full rating for each individual spell in a multi-cast actions seems very powerful to me. The idea that it allows you to go over your current Magic Rating (up to MR + PFR, of course) before resorting to overcasting seems to be a cool, but not too cool ability - and reason why to have one. (Other than the whole +PR to all Magic Die Pools that is.....)

Hmmmm...... makes me think. And it hurts!!

[Udoshi]

Way I read it, a power focus adds its rating to the force of the spell you cast which means you cast a spell at force 5 with a force 3 power focus, you still roll your Spellcasting + Magic as normal but can get 8 hits instead of 5, you resist drain as if you had cast the spell at a force of 5 (before it's modified by the spell), and if it's a combat spell is based off a force of 8 for damage results and such.

But the Force of a spell is not a Test; so why would a power focus add dice to it? I don't see how the wording of a power focus is ambigous at all.

[Rand]

Yeah, I'm probably using "carry-over" ideology from earlier editions. But, for me, the descision is: do I want it to add it's full rating to every spell cast in a multi-casting, or just have it increase the Magic Rating (though not like an augmentation or attribute increase from an adept power)?

I tend to go with the latter because I think using it for every spell in a multi-cast is just sick. But that is just me.

[Lanlaorn]

If you increase the magic attribute directly then while it's weaker for multicasting it's stronger in many other ways, such as overcasting/oversummoning and dealing with background count.

[Rand]

Yup, I tend to like that approach better.

[Lanlaorn]

Well, if your character concept focuses on lots of multicasting 'bolts rather than other things it would actually be better to get a combat spellcasting focus. I'm a fan of this myself, good 'ol magic missile spam (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Although a power focus for all your other casting/magic needs is still a good idea, say a 2-4 force one at chargen, a Force 6+ spellcasting focus for multicasting is not bad.

[SpellBinder]

But the Force of a spell is not a Test; so why would a power focus add dice to it? I don't see how the wording of a power focus is ambigous at all.

I'm not saying a power focus adds dice (pretty sure I didn't say that). The force of a spell limits how many hits you can get (SR4a, pg 182). Using a power focus to up the force of a spell will let you get more hits. I guess I'll have to elaborate on what I was trying to say...

Say the magician has Magic 5 & Spellcasting 5. You cast a spell at force 5, you throw 10 dice (Spellcasting 5 + Magic 5), you can get at most 5 hits (force 5), and you're resisting drain at 2 (half of force 5, round down) + spell modifiers. Effects of the spell are based at the force of 5, plus your hits in the Spellcasting test. If the spell was a manabolt, you're doing 5 + Spellcasting hits Physical damage and resisting a drain of 2S.

Now add a force 5 Power Focus to the above scenario. You cast a spell at force 5 with the power focus, you still only throw 10 dice (still only Spellcasting 5 + Magic 5), but now you can get up to 10 hits (force 5 + power focus 5), and you're still resisting drain at 2 (still half of force 5, round down) + spell modifiers. Effects of the spell are now based at a force of 10 (again, force 5 + power focus 5), plus your hits in the Spellcasting test. If the spell was once again a manabolt, you're now doing 10 + Spellcasting hits Physical damage and still only resisting a drain of 2S.

[Glyph]

There is absolutely nothing in the rules to support that interpretation. Power foci add dice, that's it.

And as far as the notion that using a Force: 5 power focus and multicasting gives you +5 to each roll, let me quote the FAQ, with a slight emphasis:

How do you split a dice pool, such as using multiple weapons or casting multiple spells?

A dice pool is generally Skill (+ Specialization) + Attribute + anything else that adds directly to the dice pool but is not listed as a dice pool modifier (foci, certain augmentations, etc.). When splitting the pool the player divides these dice however they want, keeping at least one die for each test. Dice pool modifiers (from certain augmentations, darkness, smoke, etc.) are then applied to each test separately.

[Emy]

The overall dice pool consists of skill + attribute + modifiers. Modifiers are the 'anything else'. The FAQ is wrong.

[Mäx]

The overall dice pool consists of skill + attribute + modifiers. Modifiers are the 'anything else'. The FAQ is wrong.

Yeah, the base dicepool that is plit is magic+spelcasting skill, everything else is added after the split(ie.specialisation,mentor bonus,foci etc.)
That wierd ass FAQ answer has no basis on rules and is one more example to the long list of why the FAQ is useless piece of crap.

[Lansdren]

I have to agree, the FAQ is tricky for me to use as so much of it is crap

[Aerospider]

Yeah, I'm probably using "carry-over" ideology from earlier editions. But, for me, the descision is: do I want it to add it's full rating to every spell cast in a multi-casting, or just have it increase the Magic Rating (though not like an augmentation or attribute increase from an adept power)?

I tend to go with the latter because I think using it for every spell in a multi-cast is just sick. But that is just me.

They do make multi-casting a lot more effective, but no more so than the cheaper spellcasting foci as has been mentioned. With power foci you're paying for the versatility, so if you ban an application for a power foci you should ban it for all of them.

Also, don't forget that power foci do nothing for drain resistance, since drain resistance tests do not use Magic, so you still need to be able to withstand the souped-up drain values.

[Yerameyahu]

I'd rather assume the FAQ is right, because it's so abusive to use that 'oh, look, I get +9 to all my split actions' deal.