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> Improve Attribute, An implied threshold?
Floyd
post Jul 27 2010, 08:37 PM
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I have a NPC I was going to create, with a charisma of 5, and increase charisma spell. With the force of five, wouldn't he need at least three successes to over come the sustaining penalty of -2? I would like to know if there is any errata or listed rule that speaks of special cases, like ignoring the penalty with rolls involving the increased trait. (I thought I read one, once)

I know he could use a sustaining focus or quicken it, but I would like for him to not have to have a high dollar item like that on his person or spend the karma.

If there are any rules outside of the two options above, please let me know where they can be found. Thank you.
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Karoline
post Jul 27 2010, 08:42 PM
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A spirit could be made to sustain it for him, but he would likely burn services too fast to make it applicable for most uses of charisma. You might be thinking of TMs, who are specifically addressed as not getting the -2 sustaining penalty for threading on any test that involves the CF that they are threading. There isn't anything similar to that for mages though because they have so many other ways to ignore the sustaining penalty, while TMs only have sprites and the ultra sucky RAM widget.
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Summerstorm
post Jul 27 2010, 08:45 PM
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Nononono...

the -2 apply to ALL tests, after you have cast a spell and began sustaining it. It doesn't destroy hits already achieved or weaken anything. It just means that after the spell is done he gets a -2 to everything (but resistance rolls)
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Karoline
post Jul 27 2010, 08:50 PM
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QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Jul 27 2010, 04:45 PM) *
Nononono...

the -2 apply to ALL tests, after you have cast a spell and began sustaining it. It doesn't destroy hits already achieved or weaken anything. It just means that after the spell is done he gets a -2 to everything (but resistance rolls)


Yeah, but he is saying that a +2 to charisma is fairly pointless if he is sustaining the spell because it gives him a +2 DP, but sustaining gives him a -2 DP. So he needs at least 3 hits for it to be worthwhile.
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Traul
post Jul 27 2010, 09:05 PM
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1) The sustaining penalty applies once the spell takes effect, so the casting roll itself is not affected.

2) The sustaining penatly only affects dice pools. You throw 2 less dice and that's it. You count your hits normaly and there is no change to the threshold.

3) I suppose your NPC wants to boost Charisma to help resist Drain. Drain tests are not affected by the sustaining penalty (see Spellcasting Step 6: Resist Drain). What you are doing is trading spellcasting dice for drain dice. On another Charisma test, you are right that you need at least 3 hits to get a net benefit. If you get less than that, you need to spend a free action to drop the spell.

4) Don't forget that the augmented maxima still apply. If your NPC is not an elf, there is no point in casting a Force 5 Improve Charisma, as he cannot go above 9.
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Irion
post Jul 27 2010, 09:06 PM
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Well, it is pointless. Even more, if you consider that a human with CH 5 may only get +4. (And not all of the social rolls ask for charisma)

An other point is even more disturbing.
QUOTE
The Force of the spell must
equal or exceed the (augmented) value of the attribute being affected.

When is this condition applied?
Just when casting? Or does the spell drop, if you enter a backgroundcount?
Or has the force even to be the value you augmented the attribute to?

Well the first possibility would fit best to the rest of the spells. No other spell drops before reaching 0 hits or Force 0. But it aint clear.

@Traul
Well, he needs at least Force 5 to cast the spell, because he has charisma 5.

This post has been edited by Irion: Jul 27 2010, 09:08 PM
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Traul
post Jul 27 2010, 09:13 PM
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@Irion, right, I forgot this clause. To me this (augmented) reads as the Force augmented by the spell. So if you want the full +4 and start at 5, you need to cast at Force 9. It would make sense with the low Drain modifier: even that Force 9 will only inflict 2 Drain.
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Floyd
post Jul 27 2010, 09:16 PM
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QUOTE (Traul @ Jul 27 2010, 09:05 PM) *
1) The sustaining penalty applies once the spell takes effect, so the casting roll itself is not affected.

2) The sustaining penatly only affects dice pools. You throw 2 less dice and that's it. You count your hits normaly and there is no change to the threshold.

3) I suppose your NPC wants to boost Charisma to help resist Drain. Drain tests are not affected by the sustaining penalty (see Spellcasting Step 6: Resist Drain). What you are doing is trading spellcasting dice for drain dice. On another Charisma test, you are right that you need at least 3 hits to get a benefit. If you get less than that, you need to spend a free action to drop the spell.

4) Don't forget that the augmented maxima still apply. If your NPC is not an elf, there is no point in casting a Force 5 Improve Charisma, as he cannot go above 9.



First of all Traul, thank you for responding.

1)I am worried about my penalty about my following dice rolls, I am not worried about the actual casting.

2)The threshold I speak of is implied in casting the spell. If I wish to overcome a -2 penalty for sustaining the spell, the improvement spell must score at least 2 hits to break even, or three to have an effect.

3) the NPC is a face/johnson, I was charisma to put the smack down on some shadowrunners, socially. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

4) The Rules state that the force of an improved attribute spell must be equal or greater than the target attribute, before casing. The hits are what determine effect. In my example, I would have to cast a force 5, but your right, for a human, only the first four hits count.

I am writing this as clarification on my intent, not for malice. They were valid points that needed addressing. Still holding out for more answers!! Thank you all, again, with special thanks to Karoline.
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Karoline
post Jul 27 2010, 09:35 PM
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QUOTE (Floyd @ Jul 27 2010, 05:16 PM) *
4) The Rules state that the force of an improved attribute spell must be equal or greater than the target attribute, before casing.

This isn't actually what the rules say, but it is a common interpretation of them. They don't specify if the force has to be equal to the stat before or after the bonus from the spell itself is factored in. This of course leads to much argument on which way the rules are supposed to be interpret (Unless I missed it being made clear in 4a, along with other people that still bring it up from time to time)
QUOTE
I am writing this as clarification on my intent, not for malice. They were valid points that needed addressing. Still holding out for more answers!! Thank you all, again, with special thanks to Karoline.

You're welcome.
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Mäx
post Jul 27 2010, 09:44 PM
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QUOTE (Traul @ Jul 27 2010, 11:13 PM) *
@Irion, right, I forgot this clause. To me this (augmented) reads as the Force augmented by the spell.

To me it just reads that "Yes you can use this spell to boost your agility, even if you have muccle toner(or the other one i always get these mixed up)"
Actually now that i read the whole description of the spell it reads more like "yes you use the augmented agility not your natural one"
Augmented is there so no one trys to claim that they only need to cast it at force 1 as they have 1(6) agility. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)
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X-Kalibur
post Jul 27 2010, 09:56 PM
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I forsee a sustaining focus in your future......

<edit> Also, there are more effective ways at managing high CHA faces, otherwise your runners can just walk if the J won't cough up what they want.
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Traul
post Jul 27 2010, 10:02 PM
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QUOTE (Floyd @ Jul 27 2010, 11:16 PM) *
3) the NPC is a face/johnson, I was charisma to put the smack down on some shadowrunners, socially. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

He's a Johnson? Just have his mage bodyguard cast the spell for him.
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Floyd
post Jul 27 2010, 10:07 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Jul 27 2010, 09:35 PM) *
This isn't actually what the rules say, but it is a common interpretation of them. They don't specify if the force has to be equal to the stat before or after the bonus from the spell itself is factored in. This of course leads to much argument on which way the rules are supposed to be interpret (Unless I missed it being made clear in 4a, along with other people that still bring it up from time to time)

You're welcome.

I would like to suggest a mote of logic.
In 4a, the spell reads: "The force of the spell must equal or exceed the (augmented) value of the attribute being affected. The attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored."

First off, I would like to suggest that the word "augmented", being in parenthesis is conditional to if there is augmentation, from cyberware or whatnot, before the spell is cast, but not referring to the outcome of the spell. In example, an increase strength spell force for a natural strength of 4 with rating 1 muscle enhancement will be force 5. This clarification, not arguement.

The force of the spell must be determined before the spell is cast. The force of the spell does not determine the effect, it just creates the cap for the number of hits. The effect is +1 up to +force. An undetermined number. Therefore, the effect cannot be determined before the casting, and therefore, cannot be included as the force of the spell.

An example: My human, awakened Johnson has a charisma of 5, and a increase charisma spell. I would like the maximum outcome for my character so I would need at least 4 hits on my spellcasting roll. Therefore the force would have to be 4 or higher. The description states that it must be equal to the (augmented) attribute. If I were to assume my final out come would be 9, since it can't go higher, being only human. so assuming my force is 9, I roll 3 hits. My charisma is 8. Why did I cast a 9 force spell, I only got a result of 8. I could not determine my result, (even if I have a dozen dice bonuses, they could all come up 1). There for my (augmented) attribute is 5, because I have no cyberware. The force of the spell is 5, and I roll 3 hits, and I resist drain accordingly.

Please let me know if there is any fault in my logic. Thank You.
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Floyd
post Jul 27 2010, 10:15 PM
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QUOTE (Traul @ Jul 27 2010, 10:02 PM) *
He's a Johnson? Just have his mage bodyguard cast the spell for him.


I though about that as well. The difference is one of flavor.

What is the opinion of a Johnson whose pocket mage casts improve charisma on him?

Now, what is the opinion of an awakened Johnson, who can improve his own charisma?

I am trying to make the Johnson as singularly dangerous as possible. Hence the original question of quickened, focused, or sustained spell.
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Karoline
post Jul 27 2010, 10:16 PM
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QUOTE (Floyd @ Jul 27 2010, 06:07 PM) *
I would like to suggest a mote of logic.
In 4a, the spell reads: "The force of the spell must equal or exceed the (augmented) value of the attribute being affected. The attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored."

First off, I would like to suggest that the word "augmented", being in parenthesis is conditional to if there is augmentation, from cyberware or whatnot, before the spell is cast, but not referring to the outcome of the spell. In example, an increase strength spell force for a natural strength of 4 with rating 1 muscle enhancement will be force 5. This clarification, not arguement.
But that is just a suggestion of what the word augmented is supposed to mean. The book does not specify that augmented means only 'ware augmentations, and in fact, an augmented stat is defined as being the base stat with the inclusion of all bonuses to it, regardless of if they come from ware, adept powers, or spells. The question is weather the spell only cares about the augmented stat before the spell the cast, or also cares about the augmented stat after the spell is cast.
QUOTE
Therefore, the effect cannot be determined before the casting, and therefore, cannot be included as the force of the spell.

Sure it can, it simply means that your new augmented stat cannot be higher than the force of the spell. Thus if you have a charisma of 4, and want to raise it to 5, you would need to cast at least force 5, and any hits over the first are wasted, because the force limits the max augmented charisma to five. All it means is that the power of the spell is a factor of both its force and its hits, which isn't very different from a stunbolt.
QUOTE
Please let me know if there is any fault in my logic. Thank You.

You're welcome (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Traul
post Jul 27 2010, 10:26 PM
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QUOTE (Floyd @ Jul 28 2010, 12:07 AM) *
The force of the spell must be determined before the spell is cast. The force of the spell does not determine the effect, it just creates the cap for the number of hits. The effect is +1 up to +force. An undetermined number. Therefore, the effect cannot be determined before the casting, and therefore, cannot be included as the force of the spell.


It is practically the same, since the hits are converted to attribute points. All it does is capping the net hits to Force-base attribute value instead of Force.

QUOTE
An example: My human, awakened Johnson has a charisma of 5, and a increase charisma spell. I would like the maximum outcome for my character so I would need at least 4 hits on my spellcasting roll. Therefore the force would have to be 4 or higher. The description states that it must be equal to the (augmented) attribute. If I were to assume my final out come would be 9, since it can't go higher, being only human. so assuming my force is 9, I roll 3 hits. My charisma is 8. Why did I cast a 9 force spell, I only got a result of 8.


This example blurs things a bit because with your rules and those values, the Force cap is never reached.

Let's try again with a Charisma of only 4 and your rules. You need a Force of at least 4 and you want the maximal value, that is 9 , which would require 5 hits. So you cast with Force 5 and roll: only 4 hits. Why did you cast a Force 5 spell, you only got a result of 4...

The only difference is in your perception, not in the actual effect. With any of the rules, Improve Attribute is one of those spells where the only relevant figure to determine the effect is the number of hits and Force is only here to cap those hits (there are already plenty others like that). We are only discussing the level of the cap. On those spells, choosing the Force is always a bet.
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Yerameyahu
post Jul 27 2010, 10:26 PM
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I assume it means 'augmented total at the time of casting', not after casting.
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Floyd
post Jul 27 2010, 10:38 PM
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Karoline says:
Sure it can, it simply means that your new augmented stat cannot be higher than the force of the spell. Thus if you have a charisma of 4, and want to raise it to 5, you would need to cast at least force 5, and any hits over the first are wasted, because the force limits the max augmented charisma to five. All it means is that the power of the spell is a factor of both its force and its hits, which isn't very different from a stunbolt.

Floyd responds:
That explains the drain. Any force 5 or under is reduced to the minimum drain value, whatever that is. (couldn't find it for spells. Spirits, its 2dv.)
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Karoline
post Jul 27 2010, 10:42 PM
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QUOTE
so assuming my force is 9, I roll 3 hits. My charisma is 8. Why did I cast a 9 force spell, I only got a result of 8. I could not determine my result, (even if I have a dozen dice bonuses, they could all come up 1). There for my (augmented) attribute is 5, because I have no cyberware. The force of the spell is 5, and I roll 3 hits, and I resist drain accordingly.


QUOTE (Traul @ Jul 27 2010, 06:26 PM) *
This example blurs things a bit because with your rules and those values, the Force cap is never reached.

Let's try again with a Charisma of only 4 and your rules. You need a Force of at least 4 and you want the maximal value, that is 9 , which would require 5 hits. So you cast with Force 5 and roll: only 4 hits. Why did you cast a Force 5 spell, you only got a result of 4...

This.

There are plenty of examples of 'why did I cast force X? I only got X-1 hits'
Improved Invisibility for example requires you to get at least 4(5?) hits to not be seen by cameras, so you need to cast it at at least that force, but if you got fewer hits, why did you bother casting at that force? The answer is simple, because you were hoping for a better effect. You cast the improve attribute spell at force 9 because you are hoping that you will get enough hits to get your stat up to 9. You cast levitation at force 5 because you were hoping to get the 5 hits required to lift that 1000kg object.
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Karoline
post Jul 27 2010, 10:44 PM
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QUOTE (Floyd @ Jul 27 2010, 06:38 PM) *
Floyd responds:
That explains the drain. Any force 5 or under is reduced to the minimum drain value, whatever that is. (couldn't find it for spells. Spirits, its 2dv.)

Yeah, the drain value is exceptionally low for a spell that you would (almost) never have to cast at a force high enough to raise drain above 1.
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Floyd
post Jul 27 2010, 10:56 PM
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You know....

I think I argued the other side of this argument, somewhere in here, six months ago. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

Still doesn't fix my sustaining problem......oh well.
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Floyd
post Jul 27 2010, 11:30 PM
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HOLY STINKING FUDGE!!!!!!!!!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

HOW AM I GOING TO AFFORD A FORCE 9 SUSTAINING FOCUS!!!!!!!!!

THIS MAKES NO SENSE!!!!!!!!!!!


Will I have to House rule the force of the sustaining focus is regulated by number of hits, and vice versa? A force 9 spell with three hits can be sustained by a force three sustaining focus?

Will an Mage body guard need to cast and sustain this on my Awakened Johnson (please, no laughing).

Increase Attribute cannot work with any other magic item if the (augmented) in the spell text is referencing the after effect!!!!!!

Having increased attribute for a PC is pointless for that PC.
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Yerameyahu
post Jul 28 2010, 12:19 AM
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How about you just follow the rules? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Floyd
post Jul 28 2010, 12:39 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 28 2010, 01:19 AM) *
How about you just follow the rules? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



Illuminating, troll
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Yerameyahu
post Jul 28 2010, 12:43 AM
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You're the one wigging right out about a focus that you're not allowed to get. It's not like you even need to increase your NPC's Charisma to accomplish any particular task.
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