Shadowrun 1 v Shadowrun 2 v Shadowrun 3 v Shadowrun 4, Which is your favourite ?? Options

[tete]

And sams in SR4 are still very, very powerful - the only difference is he only gets 1 action before mooks return fire, rather than 2-3, and that makes everything a lot more interesting. You could get the same effect earlier if the mooks had cover by delaying actions, but again, you'd have to engineer that situation with advance warning for the mooks, and really - they'd just hunker down or flee and wait for reinforcements.

This is WRONG. 3e has the same initiative system as 4e in terms of order. Everyone acts, subtract 10, continue. It was also used by Vampire Revised edition. This is one of the reason I think 3e is better overall even if it no longer fit the fiction, you didn't have a pizza party while the street sam went.

Here's a bad story: The protagonist is an unstoppable killing machine. He kills hordes of enemies face on without problems. The amount and quality of enemies and the tactics they use seem unrealistic, but at least it sometimes makes it dramatic.

Here's a good story: The protagonist is a professional. He overcomes his enemies through the use of sound tactics, surprise and stealth. When he messes up, he can normally recover from it - he is after a all quite a cut above mooks - but it is by no means risk free. When they sometimes manage to spring a trap or launch a counterattack, it becomes downright hectic.

The first one is very John Woo, a valid playstyle, but I agree it can get boring because you have to up the ante. Though some people really like superhero games thats why Mutants and Mastermind, HERO, ICONs, and many other games exist. I prefer a bit more danger but that doesn't mean you can't have 523 karma (my personal high) and still get killed by a bullet. Even with my several million nuyen Renraku could destroy me without even flinching. Red Samurai have better access to high tech shit than I do. They can bring to the table every last resource to fry my ass. If I got wired 3 they got Move By Wire 3 and Assault helicopters. Having me rob a stuffer shack is silly, having me run the archeology... well thats the stuff you either retire after or die in a blaze of glory. Point being when you hit the story 1 end of karma and cash you shouldn't be slumming in the barrens doing jobs for gangs, you should be working for one of the megacorps directly as a specialist. Both are legitimate stories, but to be a bit on topic 4e doesnt do high karma games well unless your a mage. (its pretty easy to fix if you remove skill caps though)

[Karoline]

This is WRONG. 3e has the same initiative system as 4e in terms of order. Everyone acts, subtract 10, continue. It was also used by Vampire Revised edition. This is one of the reason I think 3e is better overall even if it no longer fit the fiction, you didn't have a pizza party while the street sam went.

I think second edition used the 'high init does everything while everyone else goes to grab dinner' method. Of course to be fair, now you have 'everyone goes once, then everyone goes to dinner while the 4IP guy finishes everything off'. But at least everyone gets some action (in 3e and 4e)

[tete]

@Karoline, yes and 1e did to sorta but it maxed at 4 IPs and the split lowered with each IP so it was easier to hit 4IPs but just as hard as 2/3e to hit 2IPs. And yes you can have the pizza party after, but as a mundane face with very little cyberware player for many years. Thats more fun than waiting for your turn. At lease I got to shoot something with my firearms of 9!

[Caadium]

I think second edition used the 'high init does everything while everyone else goes to grab dinner' method. Of course to be fair, now you have 'everyone goes once, then everyone goes to dinner while the 4IP guy finishes everything off'. But at least everyone gets some action (in 3e and 4e)

You are correct that the 'high init does everything while everyone else waits' was prior to third edition. Also, you do get the same affect when you back-load the extra actions as they have since 3e. That change in 3e is actually the inspiration for the way I house rule initiative. The 4e version is just to mix up the IP orders (4, 1, 3, 2), but in 3e I had a system that was a hybrid of 3e and 2e that did the same thing basically. Given the lethality that can be present in Shadowrun, extra actions have always been a tricky situation; give them early and everyone will need them to stand a chance, but if you give them late you severely hamper the Sammies and such. I like the simplicity of the passes used in 4e, and I found it easy to adapt for my group.

[BlueMax]

You are correct that the 'high init does everything while everyone else waits' was prior to third edition. Also, you do get the same affect when you back-load the extra actions as they have since 3e. That change in 3e is actually the inspiration for the way I house rule initiative. The 4e version is just to mix up the IP orders (4, 1, 3, 2), but in 3e I had a system that was a hybrid of 3e and 2e that did the same thing basically. Given the lethality that can be present in Shadowrun, extra actions have always been a tricky situation; give them early and everyone will need them to stand a chance, but if you give them late you severely hamper the Sammies and such. I like the simplicity of the passes used in 4e, and I found it easy to adapt for my group.

+1 for understanding front load and back load are the same magnitude of time.

I miss the days when Sammies were fast. Blazing fast, fiction fast. And it didnt matter as much if they got off the first 4 shots, not everyone was a glass cannon back in my day.... Game had dramatic damage and build up.


BlueMax
/adjusts the onions on his belt

[Synner667]

I miss the days when Sammies were fast. Blazing fast, fiction fast. And it didnt matter as much if they got off the first 4 shots, not everyone was a glass cannon back in my day.... Game had dramatic damage and build up.

BlueMax
/adjusts the onions on his belt

Totally...
...Enhanced reaction time should mean you get to do things faster than unenhanced people - else what's the point.

[Caadium]

Totally...
...Enhanced reaction time should mean you get to do things faster than unenhanced people - else what's the point.

After looking through the thread, I don't see your preference listed even though the thread was started by you.

[Synner667]

After looking through the thread, I don't see your preference listed even though the thread was started by you.

That's quite correct.

This is for other people...
...And my views about Shadowrun are scattered all over DumpShock...

[Tiralee]

SR2 for stories & Critters! (The infected we

SR3 for the rules, fluff and McKenzie's NSRCG.

Oh, it's "Paradise lost", the Hawaiian SR adventure? Ta.

<Edited>

From Cain earlier:

SR4 and 4.5... I really wanted to like them, but they're just not really Shadowrun anymore. Too many of the cool setting and mechanical elements were removed, in favor of a d6 NWoD clone.

Ohh, nail on the head for us. I asked my group RE:WOD and after they read through the books, there was this uneasy, "No, wait, they actually serious" look in their eyes...

IMHO:
Decking - yeah, SR3 (but keep the blue, green, orange, red, die ratings) The ease of access sort of put us off SR4...deckers were supposed to be weird pale things that occassionally caught fire when things went wrong on a run, AR is nice, but..hmm, overused? Needs more glitches.

Magic: Our group has a strong tradition of magic use, so the blending of SR4 was not appealing. As a GM, I love tossing in different magical traditions and watching them adapt or run away from. The players love tossing their own Magic builds at me to watch me cry.
We've not got our hands on Street Magic <looks over to the dog-eared "Magic in the Shadows", uneven but so damn useful> but different magical traditions leads to sooo much fun.

Vehicle Use: Not too heavy on this - they tend to have most of their fun on their own 2ish feet. Wasn't aware of the 1st ed vehicle rules...god, shall be whacking THAT in the homebrew now.

Guns, Guns, Guns! Initiative is a wonderful thing and rather than it lead to "who has the 1st called shot" it's more of "I shall use this time to make a plan and ruin someone's day accordingly"

DicePool: Combat pool could get broken, but only if the GM let it be so. Frankly, the "I'm putting it on the line!" emotion could carry huge rewards to the lucky player. Also, it could lead to reissue of handbooks and new blank sheets. It's not how good you are, it's how good your character is at that moment.

-Tir.

PS:
From comments, I've noticed that like and dislike seem based on historical exposure and to a greater extent, "Good Runs with Good Runners".
I suppose even WoD could be playable with...oh, man, sorry, couldn't keep a straight face.
(It was a simple case of "Burn it before it eats through the suit" for us. If we were going to play "Moody Superheroes with Issues" we'd roll...uh, about 5 other formats.)

[Kruger]

Kruger: What's your problem with the "Rocker" archetype? I think it totally fit the feel of the older editions of Shadowrun. Very dystopian future type of character, kind of like fitting in to a future as seen by Running Man. Besides, it seems like it's very similar to the Face archetype in 4th...

What's wrong with the Rocker archetype? A part time musician who engages in corporate espionage for shits and giggles?

It was retarded. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) Almost no relevant skills, no relevant equipment, marginally useful contacts, and even the description of the archetype suggests that he/she is a half-assed runner at best. The Rocker is a contact. Not a usable character concept in anything except the most specialized campaigns, none of which had been explored in the Shadowrun universe yet. I mean, there's no shock that the Rocker archetype quietly disappeared after 1e and was never mentioned again.

Though I agree that it was just like the Face, if by that you mean that it was nothing like the Face at all.

[BlueMax]

What's wrong with the Rocker archetype? A part time musician who engages in corporate espionage for shits and giggles?

It was retarded. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) Almost no relevant skills, no relevant equipment, marginally useful contacts, and even the description of the archetype suggests that he/she is a half-assed runner at best. The Rocker is a contact. Not a usable character concept in anything except the most specialized campaigns, none of which had been explored in the Shadowrun universe yet. I mean, there's no shock that the Rocker archetype quietly disappeared after 1e and was never mentioned again.

Though I agree that it was just like the Face, if by that you mean that it was nothing like the Face at all.

Did you have Shadowbeat?
Because if you didn't I can see thinking it had no relevant skills. The game didn't have mechanics like Cyberpunk did for Rockers until Shadowbeat. Once you have the rules, rockers have a roll.

I think Rocker was in 2e but I am at the salt mine and cannot look it up. But I can agree that Rockers , like Riggers, were put out to pasture by the game developers. (no a hacker is not a rigger darnit)

BlueMax

[tete]

What's wrong with the Rocker archetype? A part time musician who engages in corporate espionage for shits and giggles?

Buckaroo Bonzai...

And as far as in the Shadowrun universe, its well established. Maria Mecurial being the most well known Rocker type but there are many more. Its been an archetype since 1e.

[Kruger]

Rocker was not in 2e. I checked when I posted originally, but I also knew that because from the beginning of 1e, when I was just a young munchkin, I still knew the rocker was a stupid archetype for a game about futuristic corporate intrigue, lol.

Aside from in extremely specialized campaigns. Nothing is going to stop you from running a rocker RPG. That's fine. Seems kinda silly, but hey, ymmv. You could also run a campaign about normal sararimen (gotta love the borderline open racism of the early editions, lol), or the day to day life of a small business owner. But, where the rocker didn't fit in was in the core game type of Shadowrun.

And remember, not everything FASA ever published was gold, lol. And while Cyberpunk was a fun game, it was pretty damned silly at times. And the Rockerboy wasn't too much better for that game than it was for Shadowrun.


BTW, riggers weren't put out to pasture. They got three sourcebooks dedicated to them, across three editions of the game as well as plenty of new vehicles in other supplements.

[Kruger]

Buckaroo Bonzai...

Laugh while you can monkey boy.

And while that movie is quite entertaining, it's also highly tongue in cheek and certainly not a model for any kind of serious, or even semi-serious game of Shadowrun. Again, for the third time, highly specialized campaign types that fall outside the realm of the core game type. Repetition is the key to learning for many people. Let's see how you guys fare.

Oh, and Maria Mercurial is not a very good example as she was a very early 1e creation. She was also not technically a Rocker archetype, nor really anything even remotely close to it.

[Warlordtheft]

Laugh while you can monkey boy.

And while that movie is quite entertaining, it's also highly tongue in cheek and certainly not a model for any kind of serious, or even semi-serious game of Shadowrun. Again, for the third time, highly specialized campaign types that fall outside the realm of the core game type. Repetition is the key to learning for many people. Let's see how you guys fare.

Oh, and Maria Mercurial is not a very good example as she was a very early 1e creation. She was also not technically a Rocker archetype, nor really anything even remotely close to it.

Hey, I made a Troll street sam/rocker named Chromed Demon. He was pretty effective....oddly all you need is perform (music) specialization of 3(5) and he was pretty decent with his axe in 4E.

[Kruger]

And still silly.

I mean, if you want a character who enjoys playing music as a hobby, and occasionally plays small gigs in dive bars or something, that's one thing. A character who is a rocker and has a full time band and then just does shadowruns for the thrill of it is stupid. And that was what the Rocker archetype was. And was why it died a quiet death, alone and unloved.

[BlueMax]

And still silly.

I mean, if you want a character who enjoys playing music as a hobby, and occasionally plays small gigs in dive bars or something, that's one thing. A character who is a rocker and has a full time band and then just does shadowruns for the thrill of it is stupid. And that was what the Rocker archetype was. And was why it died a quiet death, alone and unloved.

The Rocker is the rebel out there fighting the evil corporations.... With music. The Rocker was a person embedding himself in the armed resistance, shadow community, where "Information is ammunition".

The rebel rocker is part of the genre, like it or not. Just like the corporate tool rocker.

Rockers fit under the same umbrella as Investigators, gateways to the public.


BTW Silly is good sometimes. If I wanted more "real", I'd schedule more meetings.
BlueMax
/There are no Riggers in 4th ed, only hackers with pilot.
//just escaped meeting hell

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And still silly.

I mean, if you want a character who enjoys playing music as a hobby, and occasionally plays small gigs in dive bars or something, that's one thing. A character who is a rocker and has a full time band and then just does shadowruns for the thrill of it is stupid. And that was what the Rocker archetype was. And was why it died a quiet death, alone and unloved.

I respectfully disagree...

Rockers have a place in the Shadows, just like the Media who blows whistles on the Corps, and the Priate Trid Broadcasters... it is just that the Editions have not caught up yet... Attitude will hopefully bring the Rocker into the 4th Edition...

That is all...

[Kruger]

I feel like I'm banging my head into a wall here. Do any of you actually read? I know it's a skill no longer as emphatically pursued in our public school systems... but Jebus.

Yeah, the Rocker exists in the world of Shadowrun. Just as the sarariman does, and the stuffer shack clerk, and the bus mechanic, and the homeless guy trying to wash your windshield for tips. None of them fit in as Shadowrunners in the traditional sense. Again, (four times, should we count this Sesame Street Style Ah ha ha?), only in a specialized campaign outside the traditional boundaries of the concept of Shadowrunners. Which is, again, why they met their demise as a player archetype. There isn't much more you need than that little bit right there. Out of all the stupid crap that the various creative teams have tried to jam pack into Shadowrun, they have purposefully left the Rocker out since the early days of 1e. We're talking almost twenty years now. I don't know what editions you're waiting for to catch up, but the Rocker didn't survive to 2e, or 3e, and there were a pile of books made for both of them. Heck, 3e even expanded the core archetypes significantly, and still ignored the Rocker.

Sure, the rocker is "the rebel out there fighting the evil corporations.... With music. The Rocker was a person embedding himself in the armed resistance, shadow community, where "Information is ammunition"". And how exactly does that translate into a playable character? I mean, the pirate radio broadcaster is doing that too, and yet he's not an archetype for the game either. The world is full of NPCs. And the Rocker is an NPC. It's a flavor character that could be a hook for an adventure, or a useful contact in certain types of campaigns.

The Rocker as a PC Shadowrunner is just one more unclaimed body in the morgue or washing up on the beach somewhere half eaten by fish. There's no room for half assing or tourism in the shadows. The Rocker as a PC in a "street" level campaign might work out I guess, but that's an alternate gaming type for Shadowrun, not the core game type of futuristic corporate intrigue. Though I guess part of the impasse here stems from an incomplete understanding of what a shadowrunner is by some of you.

Or, maybe just some of you have only ever played in incredibly B-movie style campaigns.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I feel like I'm banging my head into a wall here. Do any of you actually read? I know it's a skill no longer as emphatically pursued in our public school systems... but Jebus.

Yeah, the Rocker exists in the world of Shadowrun. Just as the sarariman does, and the stuffer shack clerk, and the bus mechanic, and the homeless guy trying to wash your windshield for tips. None of them fit in as Shadowrunners in the traditional sense. Again, (four times, should we count this Sesame Street Style Ah ha ha?), only in a specialized campaign outside the traditional boundaries of the concept of Shadowrunners. Which is, again, why they met their demise as a player archetype. There isn't much more you need than that little bit right there. Out of all the stupid crap that the various creative teams have tried to jam pack into Shadowrun, they have purposefully left the Rocker out since the early days of 1e. We're talking almost twenty years now. I don't know what editions you're waiting for to catch up, but the Rocker didn't survive to 2e, or 3e, and there were a pile of books made for both of them. Heck, 3e even expanded the core archetypes significantly, and still ignored the Rocker.

Sure, the rocker is "the rebel out there fighting the evil corporations.... With music. The Rocker was a person embedding himself in the armed resistance, shadow community, where "Information is ammunition"". And how exactly does that translate into a playable character? I mean, the pirate radio broadcaster is doing that too, and yet he's not an archetype for the game either. The world is full of NPCs. And the Rocker is an NPC. It's a flavor character that could be a hook for an adventure, or a useful contact in certain types of campaigns.

The Rocker as a PC Shadowrunner is just one more unclaimed body in the morgue or washing up on the beach somewhere half eaten by fish. There's no room for half assing or tourism in the shadows. The Rocker as a PC in a "street" level campaign might work out I guess, but that's an alternate gaming type for Shadowrun, not the core game type of futuristic corporate intrigue. Though I guess part of the impasse here stems from an incomplete understanding of what a shadowrunner is by some of you.

Or, maybe just some of you have only ever played in incredibly B-movie style campaigns.

Or maybe people just disagree with you. I know it is unfathomable that people could disagree with someone who is as brilliant as you, but sometimes us lesser minds get stuck on a concept.

[Synner667]

Just to jump in...

Yeah, the Rocker exists in the world of Shadowrun. Just as the sarariman does, and the stuffer shack clerk, and the bus mechanic, and the homeless guy trying to wash your windshield for tips. None of them fit in as Shadowrunners in the traditional sense.

I think you might be misunderstanding what Shadowrun is...
...It's a world that contains people, of all sorts - not just criminals and wannabe mercenaries, but that appeals to the masses who want a videogame like experience.

Which is, again, why they met their demise as a player archetype. There isn't much more you need than that little bit right there. Out of all the stupid crap that the various creative teams have tried to jam pack into Shadowrun, they have purposefully left the Rocker out since the early days of 1e. We're talking almost twenty years now. I don't know what editions you're waiting for to catch up, but the Rocker didn't survive to 2e, or 3e, and there were a pile of books made for both of them. Heck, 3e even expanded the core archetypes significantly, and still ignored the Rocker.

If you look at the SR material, and fiction, you find most of the characters are not what you obviously consider to be the only sort of people who exist in the game...
...There are policemen, actors, private investigators, soldiers, spies, government operatives, bikers, politicians, native americans, and more.

Almost all the archetypes now foisted on players are people who's only purpose is to fight, which is a bit limiting in a world of billions - and doesn't represent shadowrun to any degree, nor the material it's based on.

Sure, the rocker is "the rebel out there fighting the evil corporations.... With music. The Rocker was a person embedding himself in the armed resistance, shadow community, where "Information is ammunition"". And how exactly does that translate into a playable character? I mean, the pirate radio broadcaster is doing that too, and yet he's not an archetype for the game either. The world is full of NPCs. And the Rocker is an NPC. It's a flavor character that could be a hook for an adventure, or a useful contact in certain types of campaigns.

Actually the Rocker is all sorts of things - streetpoet, artist, radio dj, musician...
...Like the character [Priss ??] in Bubblegum Crisis - one of the [generally] highly regarded classic pieces of cyberpunk fiction.

The Rocker as a PC Shadowrunner is just one more unclaimed body in the morgue or washing up on the beach somewhere half eaten by fish. There's no room for half assing or tourism in the shadows. The Rocker as a PC in a "street" level campaign might work out I guess, but that's an alternate gaming type for Shadowrun, not the core game type of futuristic corporate intrigue. Though I guess part of the impasse here stems from an incomplete understanding of what a shadowrunner is by some of you.

Do you understand what a shadowrunner is ?? what the game is about ?? the sources shadowrun and cyberpunk 2020 are abased on ??

There's obviously a lot of people who think shadowrun should be about more than wannabe thugs with delusions of glamour...
...So maybe the game can be played and enjoyed in ways you don't, and all versions of shadowrun are just as valid.

But if people don't like the way it is, pushed that way by people like yourself who think the only way to play it is to fight everything, and shadowrun folds because no-one buys the material, everyone loses...
...Except all the other cyberpunk games where people can play other roles - except there are barely any, because it's a niche.

[Kruger]

Hey, I'm all for disagreement. But at least present some kind of argument instead of demonstrating a complete failure to read what I wrote. After two or three times, the condescending voice is going to come out. I mean, small children need to be told things more than once. Adults shouldn't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I said the Rocker was a bad archetype for the standard runner for hire campaign of Shadowrun, and I have people arguing that the rocker belongs in the genre (as if that was ever disputed), and using Buckaroo Banzai as an example. Come on kids. Let's not waste each other's time no?

I do like your signature though. Some people might find a movie like The Big Lebowski pointless to watch edited for TV, but it's almost as funny with the absurd changes.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Or maybe people just disagree with you. I know it is unfathomable that people could disagree with someone who is as brilliant as you, but sometimes us lesser minds get stuck on a concept.

And I actually LIKE both the Rockers that I have played over the Years... In a standard Game and everything... Go Figure...

[Shinobi Killfist]

Hey, I'm all for disagreement. But at least present some kind of argument instead of demonstrating a complete failure to read what I wrote. After two or three times, the condescending voice is going to come out. I mean, small children need to be told things more than once. Adults shouldn't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I said the Rocker was a bad archetype for the standard runner for hire campaign of Shadowrun, and I have people arguing that the rocker belongs in the genre (as if that was ever disputed), and using Buckaroo Banzai as an example. Come on kids. Let's not waste each other's time no?

I do like your signature though. Some people might find a movie like The Big Lebowski pointless to watch edited for TV, but it's almost as funny with the absurd changes.

The point is there isn't one shadowrun campaign where you can say this character fits as a shadowrunner. The rocker was pink mohawk since you did not like the A-Team movie I can guess that is not your cup of tea. Some people like the pink mohawk style and rockers fit it perfectly as shadowrunners. Was the archtype built perfectly, no not really, but can you say the weapon specialist in 4e is. I'd back the rocker vs the weapons specialist for a team spot any day.

If you only see shadowrun as the black trenchcoat style yes the rocker does not fit well as a fellow shadowrunner. But the game is not one style, the game is a multitude of styles no matter how hard the fluff writers of recent editions try to change it. They can try to kill the dystopea so they can shove there transhumanism religious cult down our throats, they can try to kill the metaplots, they can try to kill pink mohawk but many gamers are old enough to have played when the story's concepts rocked!

[Kruger]

Synner, you have impressively failed to grasp the core of my argument and also impressively attempted to put words in my mouth and present concepts of your own devising and claim they are mine.

I have to give you a solid round of applause for effective propagandizing and for utterly failing to bring any kind of effective argument. Bravo.

Now, what I actually said was that the Rocker was stupid as a shadowrunner in the traditional sense. It didn't make any sense as it was written (a rock star wannabe who casually attempted to live in the high speed world of corporate intrigue). If the Rocker archetype had been presented like the Rockeryboy was in Cyberpunk, it might have made slightly more sense, but then again, the Rockerboy of Cyberpunk wasn't a very well fleshed out class type in that game either. I've got a library of Shadowrun material that includes books with publishing dates in the late 80s and early 90s and I didn't buy them used. My original copy of Neuromancer was so worn I bought the 20th anniversary hardcover just so I'd have one to loan to people that might survive the transfer.

The Rocker works just fine as a PC if you're not playing as shadowrunners. The net is vast and infinite. Play whatever campaign you want. And I am pretty sure I ceded that point in one of my earliest posts. So you can argue with me on that one all you want, but you're going to look stupid, because you're not addressing my original point, which was that the Rocker archetype from 1e wasn't a shadowrunner, and didn't belong.