Empathy Software > 4, What am I missing? Options

[suoq]

I'm a little curious if/how people can run Empathy Software at 5 or 6.

What I'm seeing:
Cybereyes/Glasses: Limited to rating 4. (Goggles can go to 6 but negotiating with goggles on seems so off that I can see the empathy software responding with "Thinks you're a freak").
Commlink operating system: Semi-Limited to rating 4. (It can be modded with a threshold/interval of System Rating x 2 and 6 months. Um... Yeah...)
Optimization: "Only Common Use (p. 226, SR4), Hacking (p. 226, SR4), Autosoft (p. 240, SR4, and p. 112), and Simsense programs (including BTLs and skillsofts) may be equipped with program options." No luck there.

Am I missing something or is empathy software pretty much capped at 4?
(I'm sure I'm missing something. I still haven't figured out how the sample Hacker got his Erika Elite to a System 5.)

[DireRadiant]

You can upgrade a device by purchasing response to 6.

[Karoline]

You can just buy a higher grade system/firewall. You don't have to get those OS packages in the equipment section. Same goes for hardware. Kind of like how you can get Norton firewall to replace the windows firewall, or buy a better stick of RAM for your computer, etc.

[Yerameyahu]

Plus, Emotitoys run it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Thanee]

Or you could just ignore Empathy Software (esp. from Emotitoys (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ) and sleep better at night.

Bye
Thanee

[suoq]

Thanks. I needed to be looking for "Response" not "System". Sometimes I think I need the Minority Report display system to sort out the rules.

[Yerameyahu]

You were also looking at the rules to code your own System softs, not buy them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sabs]

I think that adding rating to dicepool seems excessive. Maybe have the software do a rating vs charisma, and then add net hits to your social totals against that person.

[Udoshi]

To be honest, a far more hilarious GM-side solution to the Emotitoy/Empathy software shenanigans is to just flat out replace it with Lie Detection software on the sly.

*runner with 'empathyware'*: "THE JOHNSON'S LYING! TURN THE JOB DOWN"
Team> "eh. Thats normal. "

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, I don't think anyone is thrilled about +6 to all Social tests for everyone. Oh well. :/

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yeah, I don't think anyone is thrilled about +6 to all Social tests for everyone. Oh well. :/

Average of 2 Net (Rolled) Hits additional... no big deal really... though others may not like it, which is okay... It does not break the game... and no, I generally do not use it... but have no issues with those who do... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Ha. +6 is the definition of a big deal. It kinda does break the game, if you use Social tests.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ha. +6 is the definition of a big deal. It kinda does break the game, if you use Social tests.

I have YET to see it actually break a game in play... Your assumption is that EVERYONE would use such a system, and I say that that is not the case... You can always make the argument that anyone who does not use such a system is a fool, and you have the right to your opinion, but I disagree with it... You need a device capable of running a PRogram rated at 6 (Remove the emotitoy drone and you then need a device that is no longer cheap)... DO you penalize the Hacker by not letting him have his Rating 6 Program? Empathy Software is just a tool, and it has its uses... it is not a World Ending (nor even a City-Ending) piece of equipment.

If, in your opinion, you believe that the Empathy Software is broken, you have a few choices...
1. Don't allow it at all...
2. Allow it as a Teamwork Test Only...
3. Allow it as a Device Program that rolls its own dice and informs you of the analysis...
4. Allow it to add to the Test of the Character using it as the rules allow (Remember, no more additional dice added to Social Tests greater than the skill rating + Attribute Combined; this just gets you to the cap quicker is all, and will generally not allow any other modifiers)...

Any of these work... and really, You can generally receive more dice pool bonuses with a character that has been around a while with just his Base Street Cred, that the Empathy Bonus becomes completely redundant.

[Yerameyahu]

I'm not saying there are no fixes (which is kinda my whole point). There have been plenty of threads about it. I'm saying that it's silly to call a cheap, blanket +6 'not a big deal'. If smartlinks gave a +6, that'd be a problem. If ruthenium gave a -6, that'd be a problem. Etc.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm not saying there are no fixes (which is kinda my whole point). There have been plenty of threads about it. I'm saying that it's silly to call a cheap, blanket +6 'not a big deal'. If smartlinks gave a +6, that'd be a problem. If ruthenium gave a -6, that'd be a problem. Etc.

I disagree... It is not cheap (3000 Nuyen is not cheap; That +6 Rating)...
Ruthenium provides a blanket -4 to your perception, the extra -2 you posit does not change its drawbacks.

The fact you need very expensive hardware to run a Rated 6 program (Emotitoy notwithstanding) limits the usefulness of the empathy software... We removed the Emotitoy from the ability to be purchased, and the resulting useage of the Software dropped off dramatically, especially at Ratings 4+... Most devices play out at Rating 3, and some people actually use Empathy Software Rating 3... and honestly, +1 net hit average is worth the 600 nuyen or so, but it DOESN'T Break the game... no more so than having a specialty might... it is an edge that can be used, nothing more... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

3000 Nuyen is *incredibly* cheap. You can't just keep going 'Emotity notwithstanding'. +6 to everyone in a an entire class of tests is certainly a situation where the game can be broken. Imagine, instead, that the +6 smartlink applied to any combat action (super-tacnet). Or +6 to all Technical skills (hacking, biotech, build/repair). Or +6 to all Reaction skills (all driving, rigging, etc.). +6 to *all* Social tests is insane. (And don't tell me -6 Ruthenium is no problem.)

So, yes, fixing it fixes it. That's the point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You can't tell me that no fixes are needed because you're *using a fix*.

[Cabral]

So, yes, fixing it fixes it. That's the point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You can't tell me that no fixes are needed because you're *using a fix*.

For Emotoys, not empathy software, so his statement still stands.

[Yerameyahu]

The two are pretty closely linked. People certainly come out of chargen with rating 5 hardware, and it's not like they bought it just to run empathy software. There's no reason to factor that cost in. In fact, if it's pirated Empathy software, then it's even more dirt-cheap. And, again, this is *already* after the application of a no-emotitoy house-rule. Which is the point: fixes.

[suoq]

Just to be clear, taking the eyes from a 4 to a 5 is 4000 Nuyen. Taking them to a 6 is 8000 Nuyen with an availability of 16.

So the difference between cybereyes with a 4 empathy and a 6 empathy is more than just the software costs. The hardware cost is non-trivial.

[Cain]

I disagree... It is not cheap (3000 Nuyen is not cheap; That +6 Rating)...
Ruthenium provides a blanket -4 to your perception, the extra -2 you posit does not change its drawbacks.

The fact you need very expensive hardware to run a Rated 6 program (Emotitoy notwithstanding) limits the usefulness of the empathy software... We removed the Emotitoy from the ability to be purchased, and the resulting useage of the Software dropped off dramatically, especially at Ratings 4+... Most devices play out at Rating 3, and some people actually use Empathy Software Rating 3... and honestly, +1 net hit average is worth the 600 nuyen or so, but it DOESN'T Break the game... no more so than having a specialty might... it is an edge that can be used, nothing more... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

So, lemme get this straight. Because you piled a bunch of house rules on it, you think the RAW version doesn't break a game? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Mäx]

So, lemme get this straight. Because you piled a bunch of house rules on it, you think the RAW version doesn't break a game? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

He doesn't pele any house rules on empathy software, he dissallows emotitoys, which really is the only fix needed.

Remember, no more additional dice added to Social Tests greater than the skill rating + Attribute Combined

That limit is actually only for social modifiers, those are listed in the next page.

[Irion]

Sorry, but emotoys and the software suck, and yes they are game breaking.

I beg your pardon, but +6 normaly increases the dicepool by 50 to 100%. (If we are not talking about some sort of social adept)

So yes, it is gamebreaking. And even +3 is a very big bonus.

So you get to the point, were everyone has his emosoftware or pokemons in negotiations. Great.
Why not just let it out of the game, and everyone rolls 10 instead of 14 dices?

[Lanlaorn]

Just to be clear, taking the eyes from a 4 to a 5 is 4000 Nuyen. Taking them to a 6 is 8000 Nuyen with an availability of 16.

So the difference between cybereyes with a 4 empathy and a 6 empathy is more than just the software costs. The hardware cost is non-trivial.

Your commlink runs software, not your cybereyes. You don't even need cybereyes at all, any kind of camera (be it 'ware, worn or even mounted on the wall) works.

[Saint Sithney]

Just to be clear, taking the eyes from a 4 to a 5 is 4000 Nuyen. Taking them to a 6 is 8000 Nuyen with an availability of 16.

So the difference between cybereyes with a 4 empathy and a 6 empathy is more than just the software costs. The hardware cost is non-trivial.

You're misunderstanding the Device Rating. It's not related to Sensor Rating or Response. It's a count of how many things you can cram on in your eyes.

For Cybereyes, that counts as capacity.
For lenses/goggles it counts the number of distinct options available.

So, Glasses, with a Rating of 2, could get an Image Link and a Smartlink.
Glasses with a rating of 4 could get an Image link, a Smartlink, Flare Compensation, and Vision Enhancement.

Even with the Availability under 12, you can't cram more than [Rating #] options into a pair of specs.
BTW, personally, I consider Image Link an integral, and therefore included, part of a Smartlink system and so I let Smartlink count as an upgrade/replacement for Imagelink. No need to pay for, or account for, both.

But regardless of that, if you route your eyefeed to your comlink, and it's running Empathy (or any Sensorsoft) then that's where your bottleneck will be. Software runs on the link, and the link's Response and System determine the max Software Rating.

[Badmoodguy88]

So you get to the point, were everyone has his emosoftware or pokemons in negotiations. Great.
Why not just let it out of the game, and everyone rolls 10 instead of 14 dices?

Proportionately it is not the same.
(this is not meant to represent an actual dice pool)
1 is 1/10 of 10 or .1

add six to each
6 is 6/16 of 16 or .375