Gunslinger Adept, Help me find the flaw. Options

[Adarael]

Given that the relative karma and power ratings they have given Tir Ghosts in other suppliments are on the order of double what's in the BBB, I sure as hell can.

If a PC wants to be one of the best in the world and is slinging 22-26 dice, the best in the world opposition will have a similar number of dice, in my book. Not 6-10 less.

[Whipstitch]

The PC will be doing in that in one or two skills, tops. A PC can't even take a 5 or a 6 in a skill group at chargen, for one thing. And individual superstars in special forces can be assumed to be statted up with prime runner rules.

[Adarael]

Ehhh. Double post. I'm a tard.

Anyway, that's true and untrue at the same time: the Tir Ghosts ARE the individual superstars, and should be treated as such. They're not the Bratach Gheal or something, but given that all the runners in the fluff everywhere seem to get worried at the mention of the Ghosts, I don't think they should be handled like standard opposition.

Either way, my opinions on the Tir Ghosts and their power level aren't entirely germaine to this discussion. I stand by my statement that gunslinger adepts aren't as scary as people think, relative to other PCs.

[The Grue Master]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the Tir Ghosts were not best-of-the-best murderists, they were more like covert ops who specialize in theft, sabotage and other such stuff. If that is true, I doubt you'd ever encounter a fair gunfight with them but when you do a totally min-maxed gunbunny probably should not be at a terrible disadvantage against them (and may even have the advantage until his commlink is hacked, the four ghosts behind him leap out, etc, etc).

[X-Kalibur]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the Tir Ghosts were not best-of-the-best murderists, they were more like covert ops who specialize in theft, sabotage and other such stuff. If that is true, I doubt you'd ever encounter a fair gunfight with them but when you do a totally min-maxed gunbunny probably should not be at a terrible disadvantage against them (and may even have the advantage until his commlink is hacked, the four ghosts behind him leap out, etc, etc).

Tir Ghosts don't need to kill you directly. They can use subterfuge to sleep with your mother causing her to disown you and sell you out to the corps and gangs and crime families. Then, when you're finally in hiding, the murder you with a sandvich.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Are you high man, mucle toner 4 is the best use of a power point a gunslinger adept could do, especially as genetic optimization Agility fits into that same power point.

Changeling Elf with genetic opt, muscle toner, exceptional attribute, +the changeling version of exceptional attribute. 12 agility at char gen, can get to 15 once in game when you improve muscle toner to 4 and get Suprathyroid Gland. and you still have room for a trauma damper or something else that is .3ish in essence.(.6 in cyber I think.)

[Shinobi Killfist]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the Tir Ghosts were not best-of-the-best murderists, they were more like covert ops who specialize in theft, sabotage and other such stuff. If that is true, I doubt you'd ever encounter a fair gunfight with them but when you do a totally min-maxed gunbunny probably should not be at a terrible disadvantage against them (and may even have the advantage until his commlink is hacked, the four ghosts behind him leap out, etc, etc).

Depends on the edition. SR2 they were legends of death and destruction, SR 4 they are sneaky bastards but not awesome in a stand up fight. I prefer SR4 in this regard, it always felt funky that NPC special forces were described to be unstoppable, but PCs whose backgrounds could include being in the special forces were chumps. Skill caps have forced it a bit. Personally I don't like the skill caps but see no reason why special forces member X is as awesome as they were in SR2ish editions.

[Ryu]

My take on this concept:
Surged Elf adept with metagenetic improvement agility and genetic optimization for the same.
Agility 9(13 with muscle toner 4)
Long-arms 7(aptitude)
specialty to shotguns +2
improvmet ability shotguns 3
smartlink +2
-----------------------
27 dice to shoot shotguns

simple action to take aim to lineup the shot negating range penalties
free action to call shot for +4 damage and -4 dice
simple action to shoot Boyd & Richards Desperado loaded with shocklock rounds with 23 dice for base damage of 12 and AP-2. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)
This cost about 230BP.

Ahh, good. and then you go cheap:
Elf, Agility 7(11 RG: muscle toner 4), Long Arms 6 (Shotguns+2), smartlink+2: 21 dice to shoot shotguns for 118 BP.

Sinking 70 BP in Adept, Magic 6(5) could get you Combat Sense 5 and Improved Reflexes II. There is little return on more shotgun dice from Improved Ability.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Once upon a time I would have been horrified by the '20+ dice' attacker. Nowadays, from gaming encounters and experience, from both sides of the table, I don't really mind it as much.

As noted, sinking all your focus into an alpha strike can be useful, until you run into a situation where the alpha strike isn't going to be effective. Then such characters tend to find their difficulty in trying another approach (due to less investment of skill, gear, augmentation, etc) can make them less than successful. Also, once the realization occurs to players that if its 'legal' (game mechanics) wise for them to do something, isn't it a little odd that no one else has thought up the same idea? Sometimes you don't even HAVE to directly confront them with a NPC with similar alpha-doom build, the fear and uncertainty that there are likely NPCs and foes out there with the same idea and perhaps better backing, makes them start thinking of what their defensive options are.

Sink it all into agility though and the bad ass alpha strike is a nice side benefit. Agility is the do everything stat, get your agility to starting 12 and you throw 11 dice for a stupid range of things from defaulting. A smidge of skill and you are awesome at a wide range of things.

[Dumori]

Since someone brought up a shotgun pistol, its worth mentioning that the German Arsenal 2070 has a shotgun pistol called the 'Altmayr SP'. Its got 7 shots(m) @ 7p ap-1 in singleshot. Might be worth using.

This Chargen spreadsheet has stats for it, and the other german goodies in it as well. You'll need to use the Format/Sheet/Show to unhide the data sheet to look at -all- the stats.

Can we please get a none in the chargen translation of all that gear seeing as that and the changes are meant to be in etarratar that never comes out.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Ahh, good. and then you go cheap:
Elf, Agility 7(11 RG: muscle toner 4), Long Arms 6 (Shotguns+2), smartlink+2: 21 dice to shoot shotguns for 118 BP.

Sinking 70 BP in Adept, Magic 6(5) could get you Combat Sense 5 and Improved Reflexes II. There is little return on more shotgun dice from Improved Ability.

Technically you round down on max augmented stats(unless 4A changed it) so Elf is 7/10. Take surge improve attribute, exceptional attribute, genetic aug, and you are 10/15. You can get to 14 if not an adept at char gen, 12 if an adept.

[Ryu]

Surge I for 5 BP, Metagenetic Improvement (Agility) (10 additional BP), Impaired Attribute (Body). 15 total.

Agility limits should be 8/12 now, right?

[Tanegar]

Surge I for 5 BP, Metagenetic Improvement (Agility) (10 additional BP), Impaired Attribute (Body). 15 total.

Agility limits should be 8/12 now, right?

Why in great Cthulhu's unholy name would you take Impaired Body, especially for a close-range combat character? That's suicide.

[Yerameyahu]

So many less problematic Surge traits, too. Take 'Stupid Eyes' or 'Fuzzy Butt' or something.

[KarmaInferno]

So many less problematic Surge traits, too. Take 'Stupid Eyes' or 'Fuzzy Butt' or something.

Asthma.

Then just carry a inhaler around with Zero.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



-karma

[Laodicea]

My favorite is Mood Beard.

[Ryu]

Why in great Cthulhu's unholy name would you take Impaired Body, especially for a close-range combat character? That's suicide.

A reduced maximum body matters only if you are close to the max. I consider body 4 enough.

Maybe you prefer Mystic Armor over Combat Sense.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Surge I for 5 BP, Metagenetic Improvement (Agility) (10 additional BP), Impaired Attribute (Body). 15 total.

Agility limits should be 8/12 now, right?

Damn I thought you needed surge 2 for emtagenic improvement, I should have checked my books.

Adept 5
Surge 5
Exceptional attribute 20
restricted gear 5
Surge stuff
metagenic improvement
pick a disadvantage that isn't one surge wise.

14 starting agility and an adept, bad ass. 13 dice to all agility skills without spending a point in them. Go with ranged weapon of choice 6 and you are absurd in that arena and still bad ass in a wide range of other things.

[Mäx]

Ahh, good. and then you go cheap:
Elf, Agility 7(11 RG: muscle toner 4), Long Arms 6 (Shotguns+2), smartlink+2: 21 dice to shoot shotguns for 118 BP.

Sinking 70 BP in Adept, Magic 6(5) could get you Combat Sense 5 and Improved Reflexes II. There is little return on more shotgun dice from Improved Ability.

Yes those finall half a dozen points are really expensive, but my point was to max out the shotgun dicepool.

Damn I thought you needed surge 2 for emtagenic improvement, I should have checked my books.
Adept 5
Surge 5
Exceptional attribute 20
restricted gear 5
Surge stuff
metagenic improvement
pick a disadvantage that isn't one surge wise.

Doesn't work, your 10 points over.
While you dont need surge 2 for metagenetic improvment, it costs you 10 points that count against the limit if you only take surge 1.

[Udoshi]

As an Adept you just use Heightened Concentration to ignore ALL RC penalties. Pure madness.

Thats not exactly true. I don't want to bring up the 'how HC out to work' debate AGAIN, but.... HC doesn't reduce Recoil directly by providing recoil compensation, it reduces a dice pool penalty. If uncompensated recoil is, say, doubled because you're using a heavy weapon or a shotgun, then HC isn't going to be as effective at all.

[Fyndhal]

Damn I thought you needed surge 2 for emtagenic improvement, I should have checked my books.

Adept 5
Surge 5
Exceptional attribute 20
restricted gear 5
Surge stuff
metagenic improvement
pick a disadvantage that isn't one surge wise.

14 starting agility and an adept, bad ass. 13 dice to all agility skills without spending a point in them. Go with ranged weapon of choice 6 and you are absurd in that arena and still bad ass in a wide range of other things.

Surge I gets you 10 points of effect, Metagenic Improvement is 20 points. That means your list looks like:
Adept 5
Surge 5
Exceptional attribute 20
restricted gear 5
Surge Stuff
metagenic improvement +10
pick a disadvantage that isn't one surge wise.

That's 45 points, leaving you 10 over. Even if you take Surge II, that's 40 points (5+10+20+5).

To min/max for CharGen, you should use
Elf
Adept 5
Surge 10
Genetic Heritage: Genetic Optimization: Agility 10
restricted gear 5
Surge Stuff
Metagenic Improvement: Agility
Random Disads

Which is only 30 points, gets you 9/13 Max.

To Min/Max for extended play, use the Enhanced Attribute. You can pick up Genetic Optimization: Agility during play, for 10/15 Max.

[Fyndhal]

RACE: Elf (395BP)

ATTRIBUTES
Body: 4
Agility: 9 [13]
Reaction: 4 [6]
Strength: 2
Charisma: 3
Intuition: 2
Logic: 2
Willpower: 3
EDGE: 1
Phys Init[P] 6[8]
Passes 1[3]
Essence: 4.00
Magic: 4
Phys Boxes 10
Stun Boxes 10

ACTIVE SKILLS
Dodge 4
Automatics (Ares Predator III) 6 (+2)
Unarmed Combat 4
Perception 4

Race Qualities
Low-Light Vision

Standard Qualities
Class II Surge 10
Genetic Heritage 10
Restricted Gear 5
Metegenetic Improvement (Agility) 20
Combat Monster -10
SINner (Standard) -5
Uneducated -20
Allergy (Common, Mild) -10

POWERS
Adept Powers: (2.5 Available)
Improved Combat Ability [Automatics] 3

Cyber/Bioware:
Synaptic Booster (1-3) 2
Genetic Optimization (Agility)
Muscle Toner (1-4) 4

[Tanegar]

A reduced maximum body matters only if you are close to the max. I consider body 4 enough.

Maybe you prefer Mystic Armor over Combat Sense.

Hastur forbid you ever find yourself in one of the many, many possible situations where Body 4 isn't enough. Not to mention, as Yerameyahu points out, there are numerous negative SURGE qualities that are even less of a hindrance, so you still haven't answered the question: why Impaired Body and not a quality that, you know, doesn't amount to fucking yourself in the ass just because you can?

[Whipstitch]

You might want to take a few deep breaths there, because you're coming across as rather strident. I don't think anyone here is trying to argue that having a lower Body score is a good thing-- nobody really wants their character to be squishy. But since the build points for having a higher Body don't just drop out of the sky, I can think of a lot of decent reasons why stopping at a 4 is pretty reasonable. Off the top of my head, that's Lined Coat/Actioneer and some FFBA territory, which is pretty dang practical. And if you're going by BBB armor only rules that's just enough to slap on a good ol' Armor Jacket, which is generally about as armored up as you'll be getting without putting on the kinds of gear that tend to attract the wrong sort of attention. I suppose you can argue in general that if you want raw combat optimization you should probably just roll an ork or a troll dang near every time, but frankly, not everyone wants to roll a troll or ork every session, and the charisma hit can be quite annoying if you have longterm aspirations of being a gun bunny face, in which case the Edge and Charisma netted from going elf or human has its own merits to consider. At any rate, I hardly think it's a "Body 5 or higher or gtfo," situation. If you have no intentions of aspiring higher, than Impaired Attribute is basically just getting free points for promising to stick with your initial design. At a lot of tables that's a better deal than picking up a standard allergy or a low rating enemy. It's subpar for a SURGE trait, but that says more about how goofy some of the other negative qualities are than anything else.

[Tanegar]

During chargen, sure, it's reasonable to go for 4 Body. What about after that? Hmm, we're starting to run into some pretty nasty opposition, I might want 6 after all. Too bad I took Impaired Body. There's a lot of territory between pure optimization and gimping your character's future development for no discernible reason.