Rent a Hacker, Rent a Sam, Rent a Goon, Things to do with contacts and NPCs Options

[LurkerOutThere]

Forgive me while I ramble a little bit.

Shadowrun at it's core has always been a game about three worlds for me. There is the physical, the matrix, and the magical. When all three worlds are not given their opportunity to shine and are not meshed properly over the course of the scenario I don't think the setting is done justice. The unfortunate truth is Missions haven't always lived up to that ideal. By the very structure their theoretically beatable with any table that shows up to play them, including and especially the pregens. I don't much care of this as it doesn't make sense for the opposition to stop using maglocks because you don't have a hacker, they don't stop using watcher spirits because you don't have a mage. Since the upcoming campaign deals with the move back to Seattle where the shadow community is about as populous and well connected as they can get I think the option exists to both make missions more complex and make certain that no table is completely without capability regardless of makeup.

What I propose is missions introduces a cast of NPC that could be the outsource for a variet of roles. THey could either use LT or Goon templates from the corebook, or the pregen archietypes. Ideally though what I propose, and would be willing to work on is building 350 point specialist for this purpose. These NPC's could be hired at reasonable rates, say 1000 X TR to perform specific tasks for one scene or mission. Ideally the write ups would also contain personality and background to allow the GM to play them. Favors from NPC's could also be used to waive the fee on their services.

Along similar lines I'd really like to see, and would be willing to submit. Some standard NPC templating above and beyond what's represented in the core book. Things like a Johnson's security detail (including mage with counterspelling). Basically squads that module writers and GM's could just plug and play as needed rather then having to improvise or re-invent the wheel everytime. KE tactical response forces and Docwagon HTRT are another example. Module writers would have the option of using or not using these templates as the story dictates and GM's would have a quick grab response for when players run things off the rails

Thoughts?

[Wasabi]

If a large enough library of NPC's could be written then we might see more characters with contacts when Seattle rolls out which would be cool. With the temporary nature of a con game contacts dont seem to be more than either handwavium or maybe a surrogate dicepool for a Data Search, etc, where they could be so much more.

[TranKirsaKali]

I really like this idea. It would greatly help new GM's out there that are trying to run. It would help low experienced Commando's that are running at conventions. And yes, it would help the players. Especially in the contacts area.

[DireRadiant]

Mary Sue

[Wasabi]

Is Mary Sue a relation to Claudia Tyger?

[SaintHax]

Is Mary Sue a relation to Claudia Tyger?

Mary Sue is an author's pet character-- see Belle/Edward in Twillight for reference. Assuming that's what was meant, if so... then yes to the Tyger (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I like this idea, and hope that SRM produces contact/hirling templates and allows GM's to award contacts based on this. Currently the "if they aren't in the adventure appendix, you don't get them as contacts" really sucks. In addition, it has the Char 1 ork with almost as many contacts as the Face at veteran status.

[DireRadiant]

Hmm...

How about Favors? Use well known handles, make sure it's statless, and make them consumables. Use a similar format to the contacts that are handed out, nice picture, a little blurb, and "Fastjack owes you one favor" valid for one mission.

It;s really a variation on the nerps cards that were handed out the past couple years, but could be built more into the base missions.

[LurkerOutThere]

Mary Sue

I'm honestly missing the context to what your saying.

[LurkerOutThere]

Hmm...
How about Favors? Use well known handles, make sure it's statless, and make them consumables. Use a similar format to the contacts that are handed out, nice picture, a little blurb, and "Fastjack owes you one favor" valid for one mission.

Addendum
Personally I despise statless hand waves, especially the uber powerful. Fastjack/Hatchetman/Ryan Mercury fixes it sort. We could use a simplified mechanic rather then a full on NPC stat block but I honestly think that actually having the characters capabilities listed will be best. Further at 350 build points the runners won't be getting out done.

[CollateralDynamo]

The idea has merit. But lets say you are an average group running an average table rating, say 3. So you pay your 3 grand to your NPC hacker contact (no small chunk of change really). Then lets say that the contact that has been written up is incapable of hacking the system you want him to hack, even with TR bonus dice to do his job he tries to hack in, fails, starts the alarm and makes everything worse. Now the players are out cash and have had their situation made worse through something that is entirely no fault of their own. The PCs just got royally hosed.

If you are going to hire an NPC to get a critical part of the job done, you can't let the dice fall where they may with that NPC. If the players are forced to have many of their chips riding on their NPC arcane back-up and he botches a roll that gets actual PCs killed...well that doesn't seem very fun. In short I kind of think NPCs would be better as "this one type of test succeeds" aka "handwaivum" as opposed to a "here, pay this money, take this huge risk, and maybe things will be ok" aka "cold hard stats".

I suppose a compromise could be made, "you can pay x to get this newbie hacker, he isn't great, but he's cheap. Or you could pay 2x for this guy who is pretty good...he'll probably handle your issues. Or i mean...we could cash in a favor and call Dodger for 5x...." Where the first two guys are statted out and the last one is "you payed a bunch of money and used a limited resource, you get to pass that test" sort of situation.

[SaintHax]

...Then lets say that the contact that has been written up is incapable of hacking the system you want him to hack, even with TR bonus dice to do his job he tries to hack in, fails, starts the alarm and makes everything worse. Now the players are out cash and have had their situation made worse through something that is entirely no fault of their own. The PCs just got royally hosed.

I'll add I hate the idea of PC's even being able to contact Dodger or someone of his caliber. I do like this general idea as another way to make Street Cred pay off too.

As for the above quote, an NPC dice roll is akin to you buying a new piece of hardware. It's a tool, and if your sniper botches a roll, it's "not fault of his". SR is designed to be a game of chance, and I don't see why this ought to not be. In addition, we are talking about something that only should happen if the PC's don't have someone to fill this roll. They should not be able to drag a Green hacker along to a TR5+ run and pay Dodger to get them through the parts they lack.

In addition-- any pay data a hirling finds, ought to be his and not the parties. If nothing else, it simplifies things.

[LurkerOutThere]

The idea has merit. But lets say you are an average group running an average table rating, say 3. So you pay your 3 grand to your NPC hacker contact (no small chunk of change really). Then lets say that the contact that has been written up is incapable of hacking the system you want him to hack, even with TR bonus dice to do his job he tries to hack in, fails, starts the alarm and makes everything worse. Now the players are out cash and have had their situation made worse through something that is entirely no fault of their own. The PCs just got royally hosed.

The fault of their own is not being capable of fighting or hacking themselves, we're getting very fixated on the hacking portion here but it is quite possible that you'd want to subcontract other duties, street doc/first aid, specialized science or chemistry skills, magical defense etc. The point is every test in the game is dependant on the "dice falling as they may" why would when an NPC performs the action would this function any different?

Further there is the pay issue. Just to throw out what I think should be the standard: Lets say the standard pay for an SR mission is TR x 2,000 per person. A NPC performing a role at TR x 1,000 is a bargain. I think that sits about right.

If you are going to hire an NPC to get a critical part of the job done, you can't let the dice fall where they may with that NPC. If the players are forced to have many of their chips riding on their NPC arcane back-up and he botches a roll that gets actual PCs killed...well that doesn't seem very fun. In short I kind of think NPCs would be better as "this one type of test succeeds" aka "handwaivum" as opposed to a "here, pay this money, take this huge risk, and maybe things will be ok" aka "cold hard stats".

Actually i think all this is exactly reasonable within the context of the game world and game system. Ideally the players at least will be aware of the NPC's capabilities so they can make a judgement call on whether to involve them or find another path. Personally I don't believe a team lacking in Hacking or Combat support should be doing TR 4+ anyway so there's not too much sympathy there.

I suppose a compromise could be made, "you can pay x to get this newbie hacker, he isn't great, but he's cheap. Or you could pay 2x for this guy who is pretty good...he'll probably handle your issues. Or i mean...we could cash in a favor and call Dodger for 5x...." Where the first two guys are statted out and the last one is "you payed a bunch of money and used a limited resource, you get to pass that test" sort of situation.

Errr even Dodger and Fastjack fail hacks or run into trouble on occasion, I don't understand why you believe they would be mechanically beyond failure. On the combat side of the house would you propose folks should be able to hire Picador and her mercenary company to deal with all combat related checks auto-magically?

[noonesshowmonkey]

I think that Missions could seriously benefit from persistent NPCs.

I have been setting up a Sand Box SR4, similar to what is going on with the Seattle 2072 thread in Welcome to the Shadows. One of the first things that I did was create a list of thirty or so NPCs that come from all walks of life that would be a persistent, common contact pool. Players are encouraged to pick 30-70% of their contacts from this list. New NPCs on a character sheet are written up and added to the list.

These contacts are included with expanded Factions rules and a few new mechanics that penalize and reward various levels of Notoriety, Street Cred etc.

[LurkerOutThere]

I use a similar system in my own game, this is actually something that might be worth exploring further but will require signifigant buy in by bull.

[DireRadiant]

I think that Missions could seriously benefit from persistent NPCs.

One of my favorite and most useful resources for a long time champions game I ran was the a book with about 30 NPC of all types to provide a consistent set of "normal" characters with history and background to interact with the superhero teams whenever I needed.

[Bull]

1) There's nothing preventing you from hiring an NPC in your games. You just have to work it out and negotiate it with the GM.

2) If you notice the teaser for Season 4, we list several characters in it. These will be major NPCs and COntacts, and I'm planning to have a tiughter roster of contacts and NPCs this year.

3) Having hard "rules" for hiring NPCs would be nice, but I want to avoid making too many special case rules for Missions. That's something better left up to the GM, IMO. Maybe offer up a suggestion or two when I revise the FAQ, but... <shrug> Simpler is better.

4) you should never need to hire an NPC unless you're running really short on players, in which case you have more problems than just teh lack of a support role. Missions are written so that there's a path to find solutions for any character type... There should never be a Mission that requires a hacker or a mage to bypass a scene.

Bull

[LurkerOutThere]

4) you should never need to hire an NPC unless you're running really short on players, in which case you have more problems than just teh lack of a support role. Missions are written so that there's a path to find solutions for any character type... There should never be a Mission that requires a hacker or a mage to bypass a scene.

Is there any particular reason for this rule other then it's the way it's always been? I mean it's not like the system I'm proposing changes things and further I can think of a lot of missions where if you don't have the right combat answer at the table your pretty much SOL, why is there a seperate allowance for technical or magical support never being required. Why must we dumb the setting down to combat simulation. WHy are we going by this guideline.

[Bull]

Dumbing down has nothing to do with it. Covering the bases so that any group that shows up to the table can handle the adventure. The adventure has to be playable by 6 CyberBrick Trolls with Uncouth if necessary. The game has to be playable and has to be fun for whatever random mix of characters you have sit down at the table. Period.

If I showed up to a D&D game with my Fighter, and 5 other players showed up with ROgues and Fighters. And we run into a magic shield that the only way past is a mage, and we can't do anything else except fail the adventure because of that... I would get up and walk away, and probably demand my money back.

I would expect no less from a Shadowrun player who showed up and couldn't complete the adventure because we forced a matrix scene in there. Or a magic scene.

The players must have fun. Any player. That should be our #1 rule.

[Chance359]

Any missions should be playable with whatever group shows up at low TR. Once you get to 5 or 6, you'd better hope you've got a decent mix of abilities or you're probably gonna get your ass handed to you. But then at TR 6 you outta know what you're getting into.

[LurkerOutThere]

Dumbing down has nothing to do with it. Covering the bases so that any group that shows up to the table can handle the adventure. The adventure has to be playable by 6 CyberBrick Trolls with Uncouth if necessary. The game has to be playable and has to be fun for whatever random mix of characters you have sit down at the table. Period.

What your saying and what's happening are two vastly different things, and honestly they are very different from my read on the setting. What your statement is saying to me is the missions need to be built for any player to have fun, so long as they are playing some flavor of physical combat monkey. You are saying that the only make or break tests that will ever be involved in SRM are going to involve combat. With due respect and difference that isn't being fair to the setting and isn't giving the players enough credit.

If I showed up to a D&D game with my Fighter, and 5 other players showed up with ROgues and Fighters. And we run into a magic shield that the only way past is a mage, and we can't do anything else except fail the adventure because of that... I would get up and walk away, and probably demand my money back.

I would expect no less from a Shadowrun player who showed up and couldn't complete the adventure because we forced a matrix scene in there. Or a magic scene.

Bull I would think you of all people wouldn't need to hear this but lets not compare SR to DnD one way or another. It's an apples to oranges comparison at best and an disservice to both games at worst. So your saying because no one at your table is magically powered in say Greyhawk that there stops being mages or things that can't be killed by swords? That's literally your requirement for everyone to have fun?

I'll give you a further example. If you have an all mage/adept/techno team show up for Humanitarian Aide they are dead. TPK! Because they didn't bring enough combat potential to the table. I'd like to say this is an aberration but it's really not. I'm not saying that there arn't some things that only violence will solve but to say that those kind of situations are just fine but a locked room behind a security system is taboo is just odd and is dumbing things down from one perspective. Even if we do include magical and technical opposition in most cases a hacker or mage isn't your only option, but it is your cleanest option.

The players must have fun. Any player. That should be our #1 rule.

Based on past performance that rule is "Any player playing a combat character".

[Bull]

I didn't say that combat should be the only option. I said that it should always be one of several options.

Pure and simple, combat is SHadowruns default setting, like it or not. ALmost every character in SR can handle combat to some degree.

My point, however, was that every game should have a solution that follows several paths: Magic, Matrix, and Physical. There should never be a point in the game that hinges on having any one archtype. If the only way to get a piece of information is by hacking a system, the adventure has to give you an option if there's no hacker, or it's completely unplayable by Missions standards. THis can be as simple as giving the players a One Time Use, Only Works On That System can opener program, but it has to be there. The same goes for something magical... If you have to have a mage to banish a spirit or counterspell a ritual and there's no way else to handle the situation, it's broken.

Conversely, if the entire outcome of your adventure requires combat, you have to give the players a way to handle the situation without combat. You've read CMP-02 Copycat Killer, which I wrote. This is, I feel, a good example of things.

[ Spoiler ]

There are two pivotal scenes here...

The first is finding a crucial point of evidence to point the runners at their target. For this, I ended up working in several points that the players can follow that will lead them to the same end point: One Magical, where they can find a blood sample and can use that to ritually track or use a Spirits Search power to find the target. One Physical, where the players can use contacts to track the DNA and then find the guy via legwork. And finally one via the Matrix, by getting a hold of a commlink and tracing a couple calls made on it.

The second is actually dealing with the end guy. This is a combat scene, flat out. However, there's the possibility of them getting help from NPCs via the Skraacha that they meet earlier in the mission. The second is that they can call in KNight Errant, since one of the contacts they're working with is a a KE Detective working on the case. the former gives them muscle backup if they need it, the latter lets them avoid combat altogether.

Is every option going to be obvious? No. We want the players to have fun, but we're not necessarily holding their hands.

Is every option going to be the best way to handle things? Again, no. If you can stealth your way past something, it's safer and easier. If you can shut down surveillance, there's less chance the cops get involved. Combat means danger, and means death, and could easily mean noterity hits. But, combat is also usually the most direct way to solve a problem. And almost every character carries a gun.

<shrug>

Bull

[Chance359]

This that in mind, I'd suggest that future missions be written with 4 paths in mind, Combat, Magic, Matrix, and Social. I've mention in a mission specific thread about what happened in with my players in "Ready Set, Gogh", where combat, magical, and matrix sections for the museum were all laid out, but there was nothing about some administrator you could bribe or intimidate into helping you.

[Bull]

Chance: Sometimes, you need a GM that thinks outside the box. We try and cover all situations, but yeah... Not everything's always going to be included. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Especially not for every scene. But it is definitely something writers should be thinking about...

[Caine Hazen]

This that in mind, I'd suggest that future missions be written with 4 paths in mind, Combat, Magic, Matrix, and Social. I've mention in a mission specific thread about what happened in with my players in "Ready Set, Gogh", where combat, magical, and matrix sections for the museum were all laid out, but there was nothing about some administrator you could bribe or intimidate into helping you.

That's odd... considering we had no combat whatsoever when we played this mission. Zilch... Our face slept with one of the heads of security (the mage) which eliminated that problem, and in the end we rigged up their own drones and stun gassed the guards right as we were leaving. Hell if the final stealth rolls ahd been better we wouldn't have had to do that. Good team, most of the run was social in nature.

Lurker.. you on the other hand are all butthurt about no one listening to you in the Missions group proper... nice way to go out on a limb here and start you own little bit on DS to rile people up. Be glad I'm not in charge of missions, your ass would have been pruned off the list as of today. Your constant whining, wheedling, and wrangling attitude have done nothing to improve Missions at all; instead it highlights your inablility to be creative as a GM and writer. The problem I see is you crack open a mission about 10 minutes before you're supposed to run it, and instead of doing a full read, looking over the NPCs, assigning motives you might think are missing, and laying out at least 3 ways out of every conflict (2 of which are usually written for you); you just want to dive right and and do it.

It boils down to this... never in my time playing or running Missions have I ever met someone who needed an adventure to hold his hand as much as you. My suggestion is to take some time and consider if you're fit to GM; or wether you need to take some more time to play and learn how to overcome these little problems.

[Chance359]

And this is when a semi constructive thread gets locked.