Battle Rifles, Somewhere between assault and sniper rifles. Options

[The Grue Master]

Based on my previous questions and the fact that my group is very much so into *big* guns, I have created a few sample battle rifles to alleviate some of their complaints ("You mean I can't use wall running *and* shoot my sniper rifle without damaging it!?"). These guns are basically designed around the principle of a sport rifle or that one version of the Steyr Aug-CSL that is a 'rifle'; this means they have 10-20 round magazines. I would really love feedback on these designs. I'm wondering if an AP of -2 might be more appropriate?

A battle rifle is a heavily modified assault rifle or purpose built combat rifle designed to fill the gap between assault and sniper rifle. A character firing a battle rifle uses the Longarms skill. Battle rifles suffer double uncompensated recoil and use sport rifle ranges. They can accept top, barrel and under-barrel accessories.

Sample Rifles:
AK-97 MBR - This variant on the most common assault rifle in production today offers the increased damage of a larger round in exchange for a smaller magazine and increased recoil.
Ammo: 18c
Mode: SA
DV/AP: 7P/-2
Mods: None
Cost: 1500
Avail: 10R

HK G12A5 - This battle rifle from HK replaces various components of its popular G12 model to withstand the chamber pressure of larger, more powerful rounds. Instead of a laser sight, standard issue G12A5 rifles feature an imaging scope, bipod and GasVent 2 system that can not be upgraded further.
Ammo: 24c
Mode: SA/BF
DV/AP: 7P/-2
Mods: Bipod, Folding Stock, GasVent 2 Imaging Scope
Cost: 2200
Avail: 14F

Colt M23 EBR Conversion Kit - This conversion kit replaces the barrel, magazine and receiver of an M23 while retaining its general appearance and shape. The conversion requires a shop and Logic+Armorer (8, 1 hour) extended test. Observers must make a successful perception test with a threshold of 2 just to notice that 'something is different' about the firearm.

Modified Colt M23 EBR
Ammo: 20c
Mode: SA
DV/AP: 7P/-2
Mods: None
Cost: 750
Avail: 8R

FN HBAR - The FN HBAR is a new take on an older classic. The rifle is designed to fire rounds commonly used in sniper rifles out of a frame designed to withstand the rigors of the modern warfare. Production HBAR models feature an internal bipod, folding stock and internal smartgun system.
Ammo: 15c
Mode: SA
DV/AP: 8P/-2
Mods: Folding Stock, Internal Bipod, Smartgun
Cost: 3200
Avail: 15F

Edit: added the HBAR, updated ranges from Sport Rifle to LMG (800m max). Changed G12A5 magazine to allow for one round of suppressive fire. Converted 'Generic Battle Rifle' to AK-97 clone.
Edit2: Removed ability to use GasVent system (like shotguns) except on the G12 version.
Edit3: Changed all battle rifles to longarms skill and SA firing mode ('cept the G12A5). This is probably a final edit. See also the H517 here

[Karoline]

So where does this weapon leave the assault rifle in terms of being used? I suppose these have slightly smaller clips, so they aren't as good for full spray, but it seems they take out the assault rifle's main 'niche'.

[The Grue Master]

I generally consider the main use of assault rifles to be burst/full auto fire in an unrestricted environment. I base this on the ease with which they can acquire 6-8 points of recoil comp, or max out recoil comp on a stronger character without significantly sacrificing concealability (possibly even enhancing it). Conversely, it is difficult to impossible to fire most heavy weapons while remaining mobile without the use of a gyro-harness. This weapon should be fulfilling the role of the single shot weapon at ranges greater than those of a shotgun firing slugs. It should only ever be fired FA when supressing or from a very controlled position (I could see using a six round burst in ideal conditions). However, I could remove the FA mod to greater clarify the distinction between assault rifle and battle rifle.

[jakephillips]

I normally take the sporting rifle and use augmentation to change the mode to BF, and extend the clip for ammo cap. That gives you 7p -2 sport rifle ranges and a short burst of 9p. I know that this takes up all the mod slots in the weapon but makes it more like a BAR.

[DMiller]

I like this concept. Though I think I would drop BF from the fire modes making them all SA/FA. This would allow less overlap with the assult rifles but still make the battle rifle a viable weapon.

The double uncompensated recoil is probably the best thing on these, it'll keep the lead hose effect to a minimum.

-D

[X-Kalibur]

Well, and seeing as there are already rules in place for making these in Arsenal, it probably doesn't hurt to have some already made up and available for players that want to be a marksman, as opposed to a sniper.

[Voran]

Some additional thoughts:

Doubling of uncompensated recoil penalties, most assuredly, to reflect the generally higher 'oomph' of their rounds, that adds up when you rock and roll.

It seems SR4 has more or less done away with weight considerations, or downplayed them, but I'd consider the battle rifle to be about what, 50 percent heavier than an assault rifle?

In general, I used to use a 'battle rifle' for my earlier SR games, the m14 variant being my most favored (ala Raygun and his awesome gun site), the trade off was each individual hit was heftier, which meant theoretically your ammo load requirements was lessened/able to last longer, because you weren't going burst/fa.

[The Grue Master]

Well, and seeing as there are already rules in place for making these in Arsenal, it probably doesn't hurt to have some already made up and available for players that want to be a marksman, as opposed to a sniper.

You mean just modding the hell out of a sport rifle?

[Yerameyahu]

In my games, we give the BRs double recoil (as a shotgun). This fits the reality of battle rifle cartridges and the real-world reason for the development of assault rifles (recoil). They're just ARs firing 'sport rifle' cartridges. They're certainly heavier and 'more illegal' (whatever that means), and otherwise use Longarm penalties (concealability, etc.). Just like in real life, ARs in SR are usually a more flexible, more useful weapon, but I hate having things in 2010 that *don't* exist in 2070, so we added them into the game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Those interested should read the Wikipedia page on Battle Rifles. From the introduction:

The battle rifle's power and long-range accuracy are intended to engage targets at long distances, but this comes with a trade-off of length and weight that make it relatively cumbersome in close-quarter combat. Also, the recoil of a full-size cartridge makes most battle rifles difficult to control when using full-automatic fire, though a few designs have attempted to control this tendency.
In contrast, assault rifles fire smaller intermediate-size cartridges such as the 5.56x45mm NATO round used in the M16, Chinese 5.8x42mm used in the QBZ-95 or the Russian moderate-velocity 7.62x39mm and 5.45x39mm cartridges of the AK-47, AKM, and AK-74 series of rifles. However, some overlapping of rifle design and cartridge application occurs; for example a few relatively compact selective-fire rifles in 7.62x51mm NATO caliber have been produced.

[Dumori]

I'd increas the con mod by -1 longer barrel,up the DV not the AP by 1, add clips of 10-20 rounds and add in a basic imaging scope, smart linked/few vison mods on it and x2 uncompensated recoil setting base RC and such so that only BF is reasonable with out massive modds but keeping FA but more for supressive fire on the 20© guns. Then you get a gun that out of the box is better at marksmanship than a AR but worse in CQB and longer fights.

[Yerameyahu]

Going by the G3, FAL, and M14, looks like the clip is about 20 (as you said, Dumori, 10-20). The G3 can do a 50 round drum, which would be the Extended Clip (Drum) mod from Arsenal.

[The Grue Master]

Yeah, I'm not honestly sure if 6P/-2 or 7P/-1 is more accurate? I was kinda considering 7P/-2, but then I'd really want to make sure it doesn't have easy FA recoil comp, since then you're in the territory of HMG damage.

As for conceal, there is no listed modifier for things bigger than assault rifles and katanas, but maybe you could just say 'can not be concealed' at that point.

[Dumori]

There might not be a listed mod but increasing it via house-rule is fine for adding them in. They are in most cases shorter than sniper rifles 16-20 inch barrel then to mean adding ~4-10 inches of lenght to an AR only at the very top end can you seeing crossing the yeah not under the long coat any more line..

[Yerameyahu]

Well, it's not vastly bigger than some ARs, so maybe don't worry about it. Or, just say '+8', done. Sniper rifles are 'unconcealable', right? Somewhere right in between.

I guess 7P/-1, but it doesn't matter *too* much. As long as none of the models have tons of 'free' recoil (Ares Alpha, Ingram White Knight, etc.), I think it's fine. You could rule that they have FA for the purpose of Long Bursts only, if necessary. The key difference is the increased range: while SR ARs top out at 550m, a BR should go to 800m (er, Sporting Rifle is 750m, so maybe just use that).

Other variants: 7P/-2 or 8P/-1 (as some of the Sporting Rifles), but with SA-only (like the M14?).

The overall balance is more range and slightly more damage, traded for smaller clip, more recoil, more weight/size (whatever that means), and more illegal (whatever that means). Does that sound fair?

[The Grue Master]

That sounds exactly right to me, Yerameyahu. I basically want my players to have 'bigger' guns that do SA and only do FA for very important tasks like supressing a window for one turn only, or such.

[Dumori]

x2 the uncomp recoil, SA/BF/FA would work fine as rule them none asvent able and that most you gonna really twink out is 5-6 RC

[Yerameyahu]

Well, they're certainly gas-ventable. But as long as you don't give 'free' RC (Praetor, etc.), then it's probably okay.

[Link]

Those interested should read the Wikipedia page on Battle Rifles.

That wiki page is a bit dubious, like it's trying to develop the taxonomy of rifles rather than describe them (reference 3 in particular). Good for an RPG though ;)

[Mantis]

I like these. Always wondered where the MBR/EBR type weapons were in SR. I agree with Yerameyahu, that it seems odd not to have these in 2070 when we have them now. Maybe the plans were lost with Crash 1 or 2 (yea right) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Voran]

That or the main issues of battle rifles were corrected, and battle rifles became the 'current' version of assault rifles. Granted it gets a little wonky in the sense that sport rifles still have better damage than assault rifles, but in the sense that 'now' an ak-98 can do the same damage and have the same range as a colt m23a (ak47 vs M16?) implies they found away to put beefier battle-rifle grade ammo in lighter assault rifle weight.

Over on youtube, there's a guy running a socom 2 field run who comments that while he likes the .308 round its firing, its a heavy thing, with its smaller mag as well, but also talked about how great it would potentially be if you could get the weight down on the rifle but still maintain the punch of the round.

[The Grue Master]

Added another rifle. Changed range from Sport Rifle to LMG. The latter change was made as the short-medium and medium-long changes occur sooner, but the max range is greater. Seems more in keeping with the steroidal assault rifle model.

I'd really like some commentary on the last rifle, the HBAR. I put in the 6 round maximum so that an assault rifle will always remain a stronger option for pure DV per complex action (2 short bursts for 8P each, or one full burst for 15P) but allowing the HBAR to have some utility against characters with higher dodge pools.

[Mäx]

Based on my previous questions and the fact that my group is very much so into *big* guns, I have created a few sample battle rifles to alleviate some of their complaints ("You mean I can't use wall running *and* shoot my sniper rifle without damaging it!?").

Well thats one way to alliviate their complaints, but you could also just do a way with that silly,silly rule addition to sniper rifles, becouse it really doesn't make any fraggin sense.

[Remnar]

That or the main issues of battle rifles were corrected, and battle rifles became the 'current' version of assault rifles. Granted it gets a little wonky in the sense that sport rifles still have better damage than assault rifles, but in the sense that 'now' an ak-98 can do the same damage and have the same range as a colt m23a (ak47 vs M16?) implies they found away to put beefier battle-rifle grade ammo in lighter assault rifle weight.

Over on youtube, there's a guy running a socom 2 field run who comments that while he likes the .308 round its firing, its a heavy thing, with its smaller mag as well, but also talked about how great it would potentially be if you could get the weight down on the rifle but still maintain the punch of the round.

I tend towards this theory especially since, as you noted, they've got platforms that traditionally run 5.56x45 and 7.62x39 cartridges having the same damage code. Considering the advanced materials and recoil compensation gear that they've got available, I kinda would have assumed they merged the common "assault" and "battle" rifles by this time. The only hangup I see, is in the distance.

I guess my theory on the sporting rifles is they use some of the more "beefed up" versions of hunting calibers (.300 win mag or the like) as sporting rifles.

But as for the difference between, say, .223 and .308; I like to shoot the .308 better in almost every role, except my M1A with synthetic stock and lighter barrel is still 9 lbs unloaded. That's pretty heavy to pack around, and the 22 inch barrel would make it pretty much useless for any activities a 'runner would normally do, except run overwatch. That said, I still hump it around the woods from time to time.

Man, now I'm drooling about the aspect of a light .308 (I'd prefer the M1A/M14 platform, but I guess an AR-10 would work; don't like FALs and HKs) with the kind of recoil compensation available in Shadowrun... that'd be awesome.

[The Grue Master]

I agree with what you're saying Remnar but I figure if all assault rifles are shooting the modern equivalent of 7.62 with the recoil/magazine capacity of 5.56 rifle there will still be a place for a rifle shooting a larger caliber round to fill that gap between the assault and sniper rifles. Secondly, from a purely game/rule oriented point of view, there is a huge jump from the damage/purpose/cost of an assault rifle to that of a sniper rifle. And while sport rifles and shotguns could fill that void, they tend to be too specifically designed to provide the exact utility I'm looking for. With these things in mind, I set about trying to create a glamorous 'heavy assault rifle' that wouldn't just trump the need for all current assault rifles/sniper rifles in the game but would still satisfy the minds of my players.

[Smokeskin]

Man, now I'm drooling about the aspect of a light .308 (I'd prefer the M1A/M14 platform, but I guess an AR-10 would work; don't like FALs and HKs) with the kind of recoil compensation available in Shadowrun... that'd be awesome.

A muzzle brake on a .308 pretty much eliminates muzzle climb. I know some hunters with them, and they say they can see the target drop through the scope. Fortunately I've never had the pleasure to hear one being fired, it should be really, really loud. Apparently even ear protection won't reduce the sound below levels that will damage your hearing.