Magic spells and visibility modifiers... Options

[Kyrel]

Guys! Help me out with a question which cropped up during a game a couple of nights ago.

If you cast Control Action or another mind control type spell against a target, and the range is LOS, is your dice pool to cast the spell modified by lighting modifiers (low light etc.)? And can you use non-cyber vision enhancement aids to compensate for the lighting conditions?

I realise that you can't cast a LOS spell at a target if you aren't in their physical vicinity, and if you can't see the target. But are my friends right when they claim that you can't use i.e. a pair of contact lenses or glasses with thermographic or low-light vision to assist you seeing your target? And are they they right that your spell casting pool is modified by the lighting conditions (assuming you can't see the target on the Astral plane)? I can get why you need to be able to see the target, in order to target it, and I can get why it might play a role if you are using a spell that somehow "shoots" from you, and needs to "hit" the target. But a mental spell? Something that lashes out against a person's mind?

I've been looking for some sort of rules that support a ruling either way, but I haven't managed it yet. What's your oppinion, and can you point to a place in one of the books that deals with this?


/Kyrel

[CanRay]

You cannot use "Non-Natural" aids to lighting to cast a spell, otherwise Magicians could just cast through a 'Trid display on a phone call. If the Magician in question has Bioware/Cybernetics that helps them see, then that is considered "Natural" as they paid for it with Essence.

The "Line of Sight" has to be the light that comes reflects off the person and hits the magician's eyes, without electronic filtering. That means Night-Vision Goggles are No-Go, but Fibreoptics are (As the light is just bouncing around a bunch of mirrors in a Kevlar-protected cable.).

Kind of makes Troll and Dwarf Mages have a major advantage, eh?

Low-Light would make the Non-Low Light/Thermographic Magician have "Less Range", but other than that, there would be no dice pool modification. If I were GMing, I'd rule for a Perception Test to make out the figure in darkness to allow the spell to happen in the first place.

Yes, this makes Magicians powerful. That's why the first rule of combat is "Geek the Mage."

[Traul]

I realise that you can't cast a LOS spell at a target if you aren't in their physical vicinity, and if you can't see the target. But are my friends right when they claim that you can't use i.e. a pair of contact lenses or glasses with thermographic or low-light vision to assist you seeing your target?

Yes. All those enhancements are electronic. If they worked, cameras would work too, and you don't want to see where that leads: micro drones used as spotters for the F12 Manabolt (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

And are they they right that your spell casting pool is modified by the lighting conditions (assuming you can't see the target on the Astral plane)?

Yes. That's only fair: anything based on sight is subjec to the visibility modifiers.

It is all written in the magical section of the book, in the detailed description of spellcasting.

Be a meta, get cybereyes, or a Detection sustaining focus.

[Kyrel]

"If they worked, cameras would work too, and you don't want to see where that leads: micro drones used as spotters for the F12 Manabolt devil.gif"

Traul. I've already agreed that the idea of sitting across town and targeting a person through a camera (dronemounted or whatever) is stupid and neither do nor should work. But my argument is that when you are in the same place as the target, and are able to see it with your own eyes already, what the hell is the problem with improving your vision by using technology to refine your picture of the taget? Especially when you can use the exact same technical aids if you have them as a 'ware implant!

I realise you can argue that it's a game balance thing, but consider the situation from a point of logic for a moment. I can see him already, hence I can target him. If I put on these goggles with an ultrasound enhancement I can see him clearer, but now suddenly I can't attack him, despite being able to do it if I don't put on the goggles!? It isn't making bloody sense. Especially when I can use the same technology to improve my vision and target him, provided that the technology has been implanted into my eyes, rather than being in a pair of glasses I put on.

[Traul]

There is nothing to argue here: it is all written in the rules, it is cristal clear and it has been a milestone of the setting for longer than I have been playing (so SR3 at least, which makes me still a kid on these boards (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ). I was merely trying to sugar-coat it with fluff, not to argue anything. You might not like it, but that does not change anything to the fact that you friends are dead right.

[Kyrel]

You're arguably right Traul. From a rules perspective the general consensus seems to be what my friends claim, and peace be with it. The "fluff" part for why it supposedly work like it does, just doesn't make any bloody sense to me, based on a logic perspective. And I find that annoying.

But anyway. I have my answer, so thanks for the quick replies (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You're arguably right Traul. From a rules perspective the general consensus seems to be what my friends claim, and peace be with it. The "fluff" part for why it supposedly work like it does, just doesn't make any bloody sense to me, based on a logic perspective. And I find that annoying.

But anyway. I have my answer, so thanks for the quick replies (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The logic is that the 'Ware was paid for with Essence, and is therefore "Living," for all intents and purposes, while the technology is not "Living", so it cancels out the ability to spellcast through it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) Sorry if that grates, but it has been a standard of the game since first edition if I remember correctly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[CanRay]

After all, if it didn't, then all you'd have to do to permenantly prevent a magician from ever casting a spell again (Without assensing) is take out their eyes.

"Did you sterilize the spoon?" "I spit on it and wiped it clean with my shirt." "Close enough."

[Yerameyahu]

If you're in a position to remove a mage's eyes, you have all the options you need anyway.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If you're in a position to remove a mage's eyes, you have all the options you need anyway.

Indeed, once captured, the possibilities are limitless... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[CanRay]

Very true.

"Man, why does my Hoop hurt so much... And what's this? A card? 'From Bubba the Love Troll'? OH FRAGGING HELL!!!"

[Mäx]

I realise you can argue that it's a game balance thing, but consider the situation from a point of logic for a moment. I can see him already, hence I can target him. If I put on these goggles with an ultrasound enhancement I can see him clearer, but now suddenly I can't attack him, despite being able to do it if I don't put on the goggles!? It isn't making bloody sense. Especially when I can use the same technology to improve my vision and target him, provided that the technology has been implanted into my eyes, rather than being in a pair of glasses I put on.

The cyberyes become your eyes when their implanted meaning they directry interact with your visual cortex, the gogles on the other hand draw a picture into a monitor in front of your eyes no different then a matrix camerafeed.

[Irion]

I realise you can argue that it's a game balance thing, but consider the situation from a point of logic for a moment. I can see him already, hence I can target him. If I put on these goggles with an ultrasound enhancement I can see him clearer, but now suddenly I can't attack him, despite being able to do it if I don't put on the goggles!? It isn't making bloody sense. Especially when I can use the same technology to improve my vision and target him, provided that the technology has been implanted into my eyes, rather than being in a pair of glasses I put on.

Logic is a funny word, which is often used as "see I am right".
But magic has his own rules so you have to use "logic" on them.

The magic rules say: Magic can only be targeted by natural vision (or tech paid with essence for).
This is a statement of the rules.
So the logical conclusion is: If you have a contactlinse(electronical) between you an your target, you can not target it with a spell.

From a logic perspective, based on natural science, magic should not work at all.
So take your pick.

[Kyrel]

Irion, pls. don't come with the "there are dragons and magic in the game, so no other forms of natural laws or things you'd considder common sense can be expected to hold true...". It gets old real quick. At least with me.

Anyway, based on RAW a Mage or Mystic Adept basically can't make use of any kind of technological device that goes in front of their eyes, unless they want to remove it every time they have to cast a LOS type spell. In other words no Smartlinks, Imagelinks, or any type of technological visual aids can be used, unless they want to remove said aids, before they can cast any LOS type spells. I'm not sure that is Rule As Intended, but I'll agree that it's a possible interpretation based on RAW.

[Mäx]

Anyway, based on RAW a Mage or Mystic Adept basically can't make use of any kind of technological device that goes in front of their eyes, unless they want to remove it every time they have to cast a LOS type spell. In other words no Smartlinks, Imagelinks, or any type of technological visual aids can be used, unless they want to remove said aids, before they can cast any LOS type spells. I'm not sure that is Rule As Intended, but I'll agree that it's a possible interpretation based on RAW.

Thats definedly RAI, magic cannot be cast through camera feeds(nor any other electrical images), its really that simple.

[Yerameyahu]

No, you just can't use those things *to establish LOS*. If there's no 'real' vision hitting your eyes, then you're right: you can't cast. But if you're just wearing AR contacts, you can *see* through them. You just can't use the augmented senses for LOS.

[Irion]

@Kyrel

Irion, pls. don't come with the "there are dragons and magic in the game, so no other forms of natural laws or things you'd considder common sense can be expected to hold true...". It gets old real quick. At least with me.

I am not doing that.
All I am saying is: If you talk about MAGIC (not secondary magical effects!) then it is useless to fall to natural science.

So yes it is harder to ignite a bottle of petrol then to ignite some wood. It is magic.
Yes, you are not able to cast through googles.
Talking about natural science it does not make a difference if you are looking throug some camerafeed or some googles with visionenhancements.
Both cases you got photons to electrical signals and back to photons. (put simple)
So If one wont work the other wont work either. (So if you accept the basis, a scientific approach will grant you the same result.)

But yes you could use the enhancements to find your target (perception), but you have to target without.

@Yerameyahu
Thats actually up to the GM. It is not said how they work. So it is possible, that they block LOS. If you look at some vision enhancements it is quite probable.

[Yerameyahu]

Possibly. The existence of optical versions of these things is long established, and there's no reason to assume that glasses or contacts (or even goggles) block your natural vision. If contacts blocked a troll's thermo, I think we'd have heard about it by now.

[CanRay]

Possibly. The existence of optical versions of these things is long established, and there's no reason to assume that glasses or contacts (or even goggles) block your natural vision. If contacts blocked a troll's thermo, I think we'd have heard about it by now.

In a very violent and destructive manner.

And then a sniffer of Port to relax.

[tagz]

Yerameyahu nailed it. You can't use anything but natural vision (or essence paid) to establish LOS. It doesn't mean that natural light doesn't necessarily pass through.

Take contacts at a low-light situation. Our human mage has contacts with low-light on them. Well, they can't target with spells (except Indirect Physical spells) because the low-light reduced their NATURAL sense to -6 (blinded), but they could still see the person with the low-light vision enhancement alone, it just wouldn't establish a link. Now someone turns on the lights and makes it a regular light situation, the natural light will pass through the contacts like casting a spell through ordinary glass and allow LOS spell-casting.

Similarly, an Elf in low light with contacts that see low light would be able to spell-cast just fine since low-light is a natural sense of theirs.

[Yerameyahu]

I just think it's needlessly punitive to mages (and non-human metas) to assume that all vision mod devices block natural vision, and a bit counterintuitive.

[tagz]

Agreed. Though it should be within reason too. Contacts and glasses are fairly easy, but a full combat helm with a tricked out view screen the GM might rule that there is no "natural" light getting in and that the entire thing is armored with sensors providing a view, etc.

[Yerameyahu]

That is a possibility, yes. Even with great 'bulletproof glass', you can certainly do better with data-only feeds (rigger cocoon versus windshield).

[Kyrel]

@Kyrel

I am not doing that.
All I am saying is: If you talk about MAGIC (not secondary magical effects!) then it is useless to fall to natural science.

So yes it is harder to ignite a bottle of petrol then to ignite some wood. It is magic.
Yes, you are not able to cast through googles.
Talking about natural science it does not make a difference if you are looking throug some camerafeed or some googles with visionenhancements.
Both cases you got photons to electrical signals and back to photons. (put simple)
So If one wont work the other wont work either. (So if you accept the basis, a scientific approach will grant you the same result.)

But yes you could use the enhancements to find your target (perception), but you have to target without.

@Irion.
You probably didn't. My appologies on the accusation, but I get a kneejerk reaction whenever someone even begins talking about how you can't apply logic to any situations that involve magic or fantasy monsters in a game.

Anyway, while I agree with you that it's somewhat difficult to apply natural law and science to the concept of magic in the game, in my perspective, that's not what I was doing earlier. Ignoring RAW for the moment (since that issue has been settled already), we both agree that a mage has to be in the same vicinity as the target, in order to establish a "link" through which he can work his magic. If the mage isn't in a situation where he would be able to see the target and draw a direct line to him, then he can't cast spells at said target. When I read the rules, I'm left with the impression that the point of this fact, was specifically to prevent mages from casting spells at people through a drone or security camera they look through from across town. There's a very good game balance reason for why this rule is a good idea.

Though I don't think that it is RAI, I'll also conceed that if a mage is standing in pitch black darkness, and can't see his target 5 feet in front of him, then he can't target him, despite wearing i.e. thermographic contacts, and thus allow him to see the target. I don't believe it's RAI because I view the concept of targeting magic as the same thing as targeting any other weapon you hold in your "hand". To shoot at someone, you generally need to be able to see them and draw a straight line between them and your weapon (indirect fire and special type weapons excluded).

However, where my chain comes off is in the situation where the mage can see his target clearly with his natural vision, but because he's wearing a pair of glasses with a build-in image- and smartlink then he suddenly can't cast spells at the target. Balancewise I don't see any reason to prevent mages from using vision enhancements. I'd consider the situation equally silly if street sams couldn't fire a gun if they were wearing hardliner gloves, or a Face couldn't use Con or Charisma when talking to someone over a comlink. (And before anyone says I can't compare the mage situation with the situation in my examples,then yes, I do know that I'm using silly examples here, but exaduration hopefully helps getting the point across).

[Mäx]

However, where my chain comes off is in the situation where the mage can see his target clearly with his natural vision, but because he's wearing a pair of glasses with a build-in image- and smartlink then he suddenly can't cast spells at the target. Balancewise I don't see any reason to prevent mages from using vision enhancements. I'd consider the situation equally silly if street sams couldn't fire a gun if they were wearing hardliner gloves, or a Face couldn't use Con or Charisma when talking to someone over a comlink. (And before anyone says I can't compare the mage situation with the situation in my examples,then yes, I do know that I'm using silly examples here, but exaduration hopefully helps getting the point across).

Nothink stops you from casting spell while wearing glasses, their still glasses after all not monitors even if you have imagelink in them.
You just cant use the image provided by the image link to target, but i see that as being more of a virtual HUD adding thinks in your field of vision not completdly replacing it(ie. you see what you would see with out the imagelink, plus addition stuff that the link adds there)