Dystopia, "I do not think it means what you think it means" Options

[suoq]

Frequently, I've heard that Shadowrun is a Dystopian game. Every time I read that, I get a tiny twitch.

Dictionary.com "a society characterized by human misery, as squalor, oppression, disease, and overcrowding." As a shadowrun definition, that works for me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystopia - "a vision of an often futuristic society that has degraded into a repressive and controlled state". This is about as far from shadowrun as I can imagine.

The difference between the two and my confusion when I read the word "dystopia" here is the word "control". In shadowrun the megacorps are often painted as having limitless resources, power, etc. This is directly contradicted by the thriving black market of guns, ammunition, warez, etc. There are street gangs, criminal gangs, and chop shops that will reclaim cyberware of a dead Mr. Johnson and resell it.

Looking at the world as described by the game, the megacorps don't run the world, they defend themselves from the world. The world is where they sell their guns, drugs, and entertainment and the people of that world buy these things with the money the corps pay them to do the dirty work, including defending the corps.

The corps are neither in power or in control in the world. They're just in power within the walls of their own private world. Outside those walls, they're powerless. And that's where shadowrunners come into play.

It's been said that the corps control everything. That's there's no fishing, no hunting, not even enough fresh water to grow plants. Yet somehow the world is filled with people buying drugs, running chop shops, and all carrying comlinks while living in zones that even the paid police forces don't go into. That's two completely different forms of dystopia, one where the corps are in control (wikipedia) and one where outside the corporation walls, it's everyone for themselves and a good alliance is worth more than money (dictionary.com).

[Yerameyahu]

They can coexist, and definitions are notorious tricky little buggers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) There are places where the corps do control everything, and there are places where there is misery; and doubtless, those can be the same places. There's no incompatibility, and both are correct for SR (subject to variability).

The places that the corps don't control, incidentally, are usually the ones they don't care about. There are also other reasons. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Doc Chase]

One man's paradise is another's soul-crushing prison. How much more dystopian can you get?

[Warlordtheft]

Be carefule defining things in absolute terms, if you ask 10 DS posters what is a dystopian world you'll get 12 or more answers.

IMHO Dystopian society in SR is defined by:

Balkanization of present day major powers
Extremes between the haves and haves nots
Bigotry (lots of it)
Power is held by few persons/groups, many untouchable
Enviromental disasters

[Bull]

Whats wrong with the WIki version? Keep in mind that Corporations control about 90% or more of everything you do, say, watch, eat, read, etc. Most of metahumanity works for one of the corps (SINners, anyways). They live in the corp housing, shop at the corp store, go on vacation to the corp resort, and generally spend their entire life in the cradle of the corporation. On top of this, a large potion of the population is SINless, and the SINless have no rights at all.

Plus, keep in mind, words are malleable. S.U.V.s, trucks, and vans are not technically "cars", or at least once upon a time they weren't. But car ends up being shorthand for "Any 4 wheeled vehicle that gets me around", and after a while, the definition changes to fit.

<shrug>

Bull

[Dumori]

Dystopia is broad, broader that utopia. Controll is not a perstic wikipedia is wrong there hell I'm sure it's links to dystopian works has enough examples that counter that. Oppression is more standard in dystopian works and not necessary linked to control. How ever bioshock rapture is dystopian(of the fallen utopia type) and there's next to no control, though Ryan did start on that road, in the point of the players entry in 1 in to there's a cult control.

[Karoline]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystopia - "a vision of an often futuristic society that has degraded into a repressive and controlled state". This is about as far from shadowrun as I can imagine.

This actually works fine for SR. Just instead of the entire world having moved to this state, you simply have 'all areas controlled by a corp'. This is exactly the sort of life that is portrayed for a wageslave. Long grueling hours, paid in corpscript that isn't good outside the corp so they can never leave, their actions are often monitored, etc.

Sure, not everyone falls into this, but then they tend to fall into the other definition of Dystopia that you provided.

[Nifft]

IMHO:

Utopia: a really nice place to live.

Dystopia: not a nice place to live.

Everything else is just fluff.

Cheers, -- N

[Karoline]

IMHO:

Utopia: a really nice place to live.

Dystopia: not a nice place to live.

Everything else is just fluff.

Cheers, -- N

You should have done the dictionary, it'd be like 3 pages long (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Edit: And make way more sense.

[EuroShadow]

Well, let me merge both definitions:Dystopia - "a vision of an often futuristic society that has degraded into a repressive and controlled state. It is a society characterized by human misery, as squalor, oppression, disease, and overcrowding."

It merges well for me and fits for shadowrun. Take note that the 'society' is one that is degraded into controlled state. And general shadowrun society is indeed opressed and controlled by megacorps. The chop shops, black markets and shadowrunners are not part of that society, but more of outcasts.

[Mr. Mage]

Overcrowding, disease, misery...yea, we got that. Control, we have that too. You can make the argument that this isn't true because of the assortment of Black Market wares and Shadowrunners, but those are very far from the norm. Most people are under the Corps' influence. We simply focus on the "uncontrolled" minority (I.E. Shadowrunners and their various ways of getting shit done) because, seriously, how boring would it be to play a corporate stooge sitting behind a desk from 9 to 5 every day?

Let's pretend that we are in 2070. The number of Shadowrunners that actually exist is probably a lot less than the number of people who actually play the game now.

They're still the minority, and at a serious disadvantage as compared to the MegaCorps with their nigh limitless power and resources.

Also, cheers to Nifft, that is by far my favorite post of today!

[nezumi]

I'm curious as to who Suoq does not feel is controlled by a faceless corporation. I mean, aside from shadowrunners, obviously (and even they are caught in a conflict - to strike at the Man, they work for the Man. The shadowrunner's dilemma.)

[Badmoodguy88]

Remember even in Fahrenheit 451 the government only controlled those living withing the city. In 1984 Big Brother did not control all the world. In The Handmaid's Tale it was only America that had become a crazy theocratic government. Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? the world was as a whole in the shitter. Same with Neuromancer and Snow Crash. Only those last three might be called cyberpunk.

I guess you could say a hallmark of cyberpunk is that society and the environment are falling to bits.

[The Grue Master]

A Brave New World was a vision of a dystopian future but it still had the Savages. The filthy, uneducated Savages.

Shadowrun is a dystopian future as well: citizens oppressed by their panopticon overlords (SINs, active PAN requirements, etc), propaganda is prevalent in the media (Average Joe actually *likes* Aztechnology) and so forth. But it still has the Savages, they're just called SINless and bums. And to switch literary references, there will always be the Brotherood; you just never know when you're actually working for Big Brother.

[Stahlseele]

Dinotopia comes to mind.

[suoq]

I'm curious as to who Suoq does not feel is controlled by a faceless corporation.

I'll go with "Welcome to Denver" http://secure.commandohq.com/download/File...Q-06-lowres.pdf since it's free and therefore anyone reading this thread can use as a reference point.


Under Sectors:
CAS Sector - "This area now shows a stark contrast with squatters living in dilapidated buildings interspersed with elaborately fenced off mansions. It’s a booming area for security services." - even the people in mansions don't have enough control to get rid of the squatters.

"Littleton is primarily made up of gated corporate communities. Quality of housing is directly proportionate to placement within the corporate hierarchy. Here, good wageslaves can raise their families under corporate protection, without fear of exposure to “the bad element.” Incidentally, the Yakuza make a killing on the narcotics business in this area." - This is just downright funny and clearly shows the corps don't have actual control over the area.

"Westminster is an upper-middle class region. A seemingly endless series of upscale, gated communities enclose fairly well secured housing. While the communities themselves are fairly safe, the streets are characterized by constant ganger activity. Most of the gangs are the poser children of corporate drones, but the Godz have been known to recruit here."

"the Arvada Barrens. When the Anglos left, this region turned into a ghost town. Then things really went downhill. Dozens of painstakingly constructed planned communities have been overrun by gangers and squatters. The, once beautiful, landscaping has been long since destroyed by violence and debris. The area is crowded with the descendants of those who stubbornly refused to leave and with those who found their way here through ill fortune."

This continues on, and similar things can be found in most of the settings. Even in the good neighborhoods the police force are constantly trying to keep criminal activity under control. The worse the neighborhood, the more people are on their own.

Meanwhile there are no shortage of small businesses, bars, restaurants, etc. Many not under corporation control or in some cases bidding against mega-corps for contracts.

Denver simply isn't under any faceless corporation's control.

New York is no different. New York Missions clearly describe Manhattan as being protected, defended, and secure and the MDC even more so. But the protection is aimed at everyone who isn't a resident. In short, they're not defending themselves against other faceless corps. They're defending themselves against the rest of New York.

The corporations have their enclaves. They have workers who live outside those enclaves that are clearly inadequately protected by hired police. The only question is how unable are the police to deal with the constant crime. Out side those "policed" sections are gangs and squatters.

Parallels can be drawn between the settings of Shadowrun and the settings of movies such as Mad Max or comics that were popular at the time of the first printing, such as Grimjack. (Much of Shadowrun seems to owe a tribute to Grimjack and Munden's Bar, although those references may be forgotten by now.) Those settings have the rich living in nice, well guarded areas and the poor living in areas abandoned and ignored by anyone in a position of authority. The middle class does it's best between the two, working to get a security they'll never have and threatened by a violent world that's just a step away.

Edit: Two thumbs up to the references by Badmoodguy88.

[Voran]

The control of megacorps in SR isn't always the iron fist of the tyrant. In many cases, its the soft seduction and subtle nigh-omnipresence that results in control. A place where freedom of choice may be an illusion, rather along carefully cultivated tracks, some overt, some not. With hefty helpings of propaganda, programming and pressure.

Is the average citizen free to make their own choices? Do those choices matter? are those choices really their own, or subtle/overt options provided by another power?

[Shinobi Killfist]

SR 4 s less dystopean than previous editions but I'd say it still fits the definitions fairly well.

But suing your references "Under Sectors:
CAS Sector - "This area now shows a stark contrast with squatters living in dilapidated buildings interspersed with elaborately fenced off mansions. It’s a booming area for security services." - even the people in mansions don't have enough control to get rid of the squatters.

"Littleton is primarily made up of gated corporate communities. Quality of housing is directly proportionate to placement within the corporate hierarchy. Here, good wageslaves can raise their families under corporate protection, without fear of exposure to “the bad element.” Incidentally, the Yakuza make a killing on the narcotics business in this area." - This is just downright funny and clearly shows the corps don't have actual control over the area."

The thing is that is showing control. Or at least dystopeon style control. You are not controlling the sinless, but socially they don't matter. But you are "protecting" your sinners from them. They are the ones totally controlled since everything they have and will have come from the corps. Dystopean isn't about absolute control of everything, but a heavy control of the majority and absolute disregard for the have nots in your society.

[Martin_DeVries_I...]

The control of megacorps in SR isn't always the iron fist of the tyrant. In many cases, its the soft seduction and subtle nigh-omnipresence that results in control. A place where freedom of choice may be an illusion, rather along carefully cultivated tracks, some overt, some not. With hefty helpings of propaganda, programming and pressure.

Is the average citizen free to make their own choices? Do those choices matter? are those choices really their own, or subtle/overt options provided by another power?

^^ This. ^^

The illusion of choice and will is another form of control.

[Karoline]

^^ This. ^^

The illusion of choice and will is another form of control.

Should I have solyent green, or green solyent today?

[Daylen]

Should I have solyent green, or green solyent today?

or the more malevolent: do I want a standard comlink, that will tell everyone my location and I can't stop broadcasting, or the luxury model...

[suoq]

They are the ones totally controlled since everything they have and will have come from the corps.

I'd appreciate if someone would walk me though that thought because I don't understand it.

You have a bunch of squatters who refuse to leave living in the Arvada Barrens. Is their source of drinking water the corps? Do they buy pre-packaged soy burgers from the corps? How are the corps getting these things to them? How are these people paying? Why do the corps even sell to them if they have an "absolute disregard for the have nots".

If the corps have absolute disregard for the have-nots and the have-nots are surviving then what the have-nots have isn't coming from the corps and what the have-nots give birth to and raise is something the corps may well not see coming in time.

Meanwhile, I don't think it's true that even for the middle class, "everything they have and will have come from the corps". The original rulebook had an Archetype of "Rocker" (pg 43). I can't believe that sort of spirit is gone from the human race. There are too many clubs, too many small businesses, to many creators, inventors, and builders and in a society that practices illusion of choice and disregard for people, these people are going to make their own way.

Some may make it big and fall (Vashon Island) but others aren't owned by a faceless corporation (Zoé). Other people may run a business despite corporate interests. Under "Blohm & Voss Spitzenreiter" there's the following blurb. "This design is very popular with independent fisherman, braving the toxicity of coastal waters and the smaller corporate fishery wardens who try to prevent others from catching the fish that they have raised in their streams." Another line reads "The most surprising deal I’ve brokered was between a drug dealer and a university chemistry professor who was trying to sell designer drugs."

Clearly there's a lot of stuff going on that the corps have no control over, even if they wish they did.

[suoq]

or the more malevolent: do I want a standard comlink, that will tell everyone my location and I can't stop broadcasting, or the luxury model...

"Or I could just buy the standard and go to this kid I know and have him jailbreak it. I got some BTLs from this band in New London that do covers of The Reducers. They have this beautiful Elf singer he'll lie awake at night thinking about.

[Punchline]

Shadowrunners work below the radar of the corps-- but for the most part, they work for the corps themselves, in a round about way. It's where they make the real money. And every job done by a Shadowrunner benefits a corp somewhere. Destruction runs lower the stocks of one corp, which raise the stocks in another. One data steal leads to another corp coming ahead in the tech race. Corporations need Shadowrunners-- and so they allow them to survive. If every corp got together and decided to put an end to Shadowrunning, the black market would die. In a way, it's their finest contribution to the economy, in a pessimistic sense.

And those who don't run the shadows, and remain SINless? They either get help from those who do, or they starve and die-- at the very best, they live horrible, luxury-less lives. Their choice is corporation or bust-- and choosing to bust shows that the corporations truly control everything, even if it's through a sense of non-control.

[Voran]

The vibe is, that unless the corps decide that your zone has something of value, if you're sinless and poor and not connected, they don't care. You don't count towards their bottom line. You don't exist to their world. Until they need you for something.

As for the independent, its all well and good, until someone decides they want a piece of your action. One way or another, you'll have to assert your 'independence', by either being so personally badass that you can fend off the gangers and the syndicates and the corps and the corrupt cops and the etc etc etc, or you get in bed with someone to provide protection for you. Suddenly you're not so independent anymore.