A thought on cyberware, Sammy vs Mage Options

[Johnny B. Good]

Sure, one failed initiative roll and that mage could a red smear on the pavement.

Same goes for the sammie, chummer.

[Yerameyahu]

I think that's the point.

[Inpu]

Mind that when I suggested this, I was specifically thinking of Cyberware. Bioware, while it eats essence, might be sufficiently alive. What do others think?

[Johnny B. Good]

Mind that when I suggested this, I was specifically thinking of Cyberware. Bioware, while it eats essence, might be sufficiently alive. What do others think?

It's sufficiently alive, and is repaired by the body's own cells, so it seems fair game.

But I'm hesitant to give bioadepts any more incentive.

[Inpu]

Well, the incentive is already there. Nothing changes that.

[Johnny B. Good]

Yes, but this means that in addition to being crazy dicepool stackers, the would have the added benefit of not being affected by essence-loss related healing. Given they already don't have a whole lot of essence loss to begin with, but I'm hesitant to make them any better still.

[sabs]

All you have to do is double the essence loss to magic ratio.

For every .5 essence lost, 1 point of magic is permanently lost.

Change Essence Drain ability to Magic Drain ability, with the added "if magic is 0, then the ability causes essence loss instead"

Now there's even less incentive to be a bioadept/mage

[Inpu]

Or you can rule that healing does still cause some problems, but other spells that deal less directly with the knitting of biology do not. Pretty easy, really. Still, if that is the cost, then it is something to consider if one implements such a rule. If it is a modifier, then that means it can be judged based on the case in question.

Plus, Bioware is pretty expensive. Not the best way to stop someone, but they did pay for that benefit. No reason to gyp them.

[Saint Sithney]

The problem here is that the cyber isn't the spell's target in a Direct spell.
A mage Stunbolts the Sammy's central nervous system, not his Wires.

Healing difficulties might have something to do with the fact that the damage sustained might have been cybernetic as well as biological. Therefore the Sammy has to heal that cyber damage by sleeping and letting it miraculously regenerat- you know what.... I'm going to just think about unicorns every time that healing comes up in SR. It is clearly bonkers.

[Badmoodguy88]

Mages have a trade off of being able to do more damage over a lesser period of time. People say combat tends to last one or two rounds so this limitation does not come into play for most people.

[Inpu]

Kind of depends how you view it, really: the physical and stun fields simulate damage to the body and mind. They don't specify limbs or certain organs, so they don't specifically adjust for cyber/bioware. A GM has to decide if something beyond the body is damaged based off of common sense and, notably, glitches on dodge rolls.

There are rules to fix cyberware, so it stands to reason that they do not regenerate unless they are bioware, which heals with the body.

Likewise, while Stunbolt goes after the nervous system, a Mage does not have line of sight to the nervous system and so channels the magic through the person's body. One could argue that object resistance comes in there: or, if you prefer in your game, you can make specific spells (most mana spells) not be deterred by any form of wares should the option be used.

Honestly, heal might technically work on objects if it passed object resistance, but I think most GMs prefer to keep it simple. It would be kind of silly to have a Mage be a mechanic by healing cars.

[Lansdren]

Kind of depends how you view it, really: the physical and stun fields simulate damage to the body and mind. They don't specify limbs or certain organs, so they don't specifically adjust for cyber/bioware. A GM has to decide if something beyond the body is damaged based off of common sense and, notably, glitches on dodge rolls.

There are rules to fix cyberware, so it stands to reason that they do not regenerate unless they are bioware, which heals with the body.

Likewise, while Stunbolt goes after the nervous system, a Mage does not have line of sight to the nervous system and so channels the magic through the person's body. One could argue that object resistance comes in there: or, if you prefer in your game, you can make specific spells (most mana spells) not be deterred by any form of wares should the option be used.

Honestly, heal might technically work on objects if it passed object resistance, but I think most GMs prefer to keep it simple. It would be kind of silly to have a Mage be a mechanic by healing cars.

There is already a fix spell

[Inpu]

There is already a fix spell

Which is kind of my point on Heal not covering that area and stun and physical bars tracking a different field.

[Irion]

Honestly, heal might technically work on objects if it passed object resistance, but I think most GMs prefer to keep it simple. It would be kind of silly to have a Mage be a mechanic by healing cars.

Well, heal is a manaspelle, so you can't use it on inanimate objects. However you may use "increase body" to increase the Body of a Drone (by RAW).
Why on god lovely earth are some healingspells physical?

[KCKitsune]

Mind that when I suggested this, I was specifically thinking of Cyberware. Bioware, while it eats essence, might be sufficiently alive. What do others think?

I think that you are partially correct (disagreement is bolded). Bioware is completely alive. In fact, with cultured bioware they incorporate your own genes into the bioware.

Here's what I think. For every point of Essence lost to cyberware (round up) there should be 1 die penalty for casting magic (mana spells only) on that person.

It's sufficiently alive, and is repaired by the body's own cells, so it seems fair game.

But I'm hesitant to give bioadepts any more incentive.

I would think price would be a VERY big drawback for the Bio Sammy! Here is just one example: You can either get Wired Reflexes 2 for 32000, or you can pay 160000 for Synaptic Booster 2. This means that while yes the Bio Sammy saves some Essence he's not getting any more 'ware. While the cyber sammy can get 128000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) more 'ware.

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Now slightly off topic: Would it be possible to incorporate any vision enhancements into cyberware protective eye covers? I mean you can incorporate vision enhancements into contact lenses, so putting them into Protective covers seems logical. Also any enhancements put into those protective covers DO NOT count as cyberware for casting spells since protective covers don't cost Essence. All the other cyber costs Essence and therefore is valid for spell casting.

[Ascalaphus]

Well, if cyborgization makes you more an object than a person, it makes sense you get Object Resistance. BUT! That would also mean you should lose the ability to resist magic with Willpower and such..

[Inpu]

Well, if cyborgization makes you more an object than a person, it makes sense you get Object Resistance. BUT! That would also mean you should lose the ability to resist magic with Willpower and such..

That's why I'm going with a modifier rather than pure OR. A player should always get a roll, and so the Or can be dealt with in a different way since it is attached to a living being.

Some already have an inbuilt resistance and so are not covered in this thread: such as Cyberzombies, since they have an inbuilt resistance already accounted for, and cyborgs, since they are basically immune unless there is direct line of sight to them inside their shell.

[Smokeskin]

Mages have a trade off of being able to do more damage over a lesser period of time. People say combat tends to last one or two rounds so this limitation does not come into play for most people.

It isn't always that fast.

The sample corpsec guard in SR4 when targetted will roll 4 Rea + 4 cover + 3 dodge when targetted, that's 11 dice.

Say the attacker faces -1 for medium ranger, -2 for being in cover, and he needs 3 more dice to have an even chance of getting a net hit - that's a 17 dice pool before neg modifiers needed to hit a basic grunt just over 50% of the time. Unless you have very large dice pools or an automatic for wide bursts, hits are just not that common - and even if you do hit him, he's going to soak 3 DV, which won't take him out (but might make him run or stay back delaying his actions, making it take even longer). Add in group Edge, low IP mooks keeping their heads down when out of passes, or opposition that's actually statted, cybered and armored like the runners, things don't end in one or two turns unless everybody is just standing out in the open and targets don't fight defensively.

A manaball ruins everything though - target can't full dodge and don't get to soak. Dishes out tons of hurt.

[Irion]

@Smokeskin

The sample corpsec guard in SR4 when targetted will roll 4 Rea + 4 cover + 3 dodge when targetted, that's 11 dice.

Say the attacker faces -1 for medium ranger, -2 for being in cover, and he needs 3 more dice to have an even chance of getting a net hit - that's a 17 dice pool before neg modifiers needed to hit a basic grunt just over 50% of the time.

So the magic equvalent of a granate is effectiv. Whats about the sam tossing a granade?
Yes, a mage with: Stunbolt, Stunball, Powerbolt, Powerball and Laser might have a spell for nearly every target.
(Metahuman: Stunbolt, Powerbolt
Methahuman(Group): Stunball, Powerball
Drone(medium armor): Laser.
Drone(heavy armor): Powerbolt.)
But a Sam might also carry different kinds of weapons)

[Mäx]

A manaball ruins everything though - target can't full dodge and don't get to soak. Dishes out tons of hurt.

Manaball does nothing if the opposition is behind cover, no LOS no manaball.
Now a fireball on the otherhand works wonders, but so does a Willy Pete grenade.

[Wasabi]

Fine print: "Although Reaction and Combat Sense allow the fireball or Wooly Pete grenade's explosion to be reduced or even avoided."

[Dakka Dakka]

Don't forget that cover and visibility also affects the mage - not only with indirect spells. So generally the mage will throw a lot less dice than the samurai. Don't forget background count, the samurai will never be affected by it

[Ascalaphus]

Hmm. So how do you calculate cover/visibility for a direct area effect? Say a mage is throwing a stunball at two guards, one of which is behind cover (both still at least partially visible to satisfy LOS). Does the mage subtract dice on his spellcasting for the cover? But the other guard doesn't have cover, so that'd be kinda funky.

[Dakka Dakka]

Just add them to the resistance dice. I always found it weird that SR4 (without the A) decreased the attackers pool for targets in cover and so making glitches more frequent.

[Ascalaphus]

Just add them to the resistance dice. I always found it weird that SR4 (without the A) decreased the attackers pool for targets in cover and so making glitches more frequent.

Oh, that makes sense.