Lawyers and Legal Issues, Proper legal representation for Shadowrunners Options

[PoliteMan]

I'm playing in a SR3 campaign and we just came across a decent windfall, allowing my Shadowrunner to legally immigrate in the UCAS (through some favors) and get a SIN. One of the first things I got was a lawyer.

Technically he's on retainer but for a Shadowrunner with a SIN it seems like a great contact to have. I'm surprised I haven't heard more about it. After all, shadowrunners make a living slipping between the cracks in a heavily balkanized, jumping from one legal zone to another. I can't imagine lawyers haven't taken advantage of it and if a lawyer can keep me out of trouble with the Star why wouldn't I hire one? After most modern-day criminals have excellent legal representation.

So I have a few questions:

1st, how do you handle payment. So far I'm talking with the GM and I thinking of something like a DocWagon contract. You pay an annual fee to have a lawyer on call, with extra payment if it goes to trial and more service if you pay a larger annual fee.

2nd, how does the law work with extra-territoriality. For example, lets say my character make a run on Renraku, get off their territory but get caught by the Star on UCAS ground. Is evidence from Renraku legally admissible in a UCAS court?

3rd, how does the law work in megacorp territory? There have to be laws in order for any territory that operate efficiently (the law being whatever the boss wants works well occasionally but over the long-term creates so much chaos and inefficiency it can't be effective) and UCAS citizens have to have some rights on megacorp property (otherwise no one would go there to BUY things).

From a slightly more metagame perspective, the Shadowrun world is a dystopia where the "have-nots" are screwed and the "haves" are virtually untouchable. What happens when a shadowrunner starts to get enough money/influence/contacts to fall onto the "have" side rather than the "have-nots"?

(For the record, my character has spent time and money building up the kind of contacts and resources to make me appear as a small, successful businessman. He spent $100,000 on a bar which he owns and operates, lives in a nice neighborhood, wears expensive clothes, drives a nice car, knows respectable people, etc.

This post has been edited by PoliteMan: Aug 4 2010, 03:25 PM

[CanRay]

1: Depends on how you're dealing with the Lawyer. A retainer is always good, with various optional payment plans with the bigger firms. Also, Lawyers need Shadowruns too, and if they know what you're being tried for, they also know what you do for a living. Oh, major thing, make damn sure the money is CLEAN. Otherwise the DA/CA/whatever can try and argue that there was a Conspiracy to Commit a Felony, which loses your Lawyer.

2: Badly. It all depends on the politics currently going on. Extradition to/from Corporate Territory is a tricky business. Smart 'Runners pay attention to politics and know that Evo and the UCAS are currently on negative political terms, and can duck into an Evo Enclave with their Evo Citizenship SINs and hide there, and the Security Company will tell the UCAS, "What people, we have no one like that. No, you can't see our Personnel files. No, you can't come here. Good-bye.". On the flipside, if those problems went away, and the UCAS has evidence, Evo will hand them over nicely as they're supposed to respect the Government they're in the lands of. All part of The Great Game.

3: Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh... This one is a bit of a dog's breakfast, and depends on the Corp. But mostly each Corporation has it's own laws, and if you're on their territory, you're expected to obey those laws (Like if you were visiting a foreign country.). A good example of this is a Japanese person visiting Canada, and bringing their Manga for nighttime on train trips and the like. Some Manga is illegal in Canada due to the Age of Consent differences, and a Japanese person would be expected to obey those laws.

[nezumi]

1 - That's how I understand it working, so seems reasonable.

2 - This is where things get complex. A lawyer can only work where he is... licensed? This is why a lawyer in Louisiana can't work in Mississippi, unless he's licensed in the second one as well. For a runner who does a lot of travel, this is obviously a concern, and, more commonly, for extraterritoriality. A lawyer licensed with the UCAS won't be any use if you're being held for trial in Renraku territory. If he's part of a legal group, it's more likely they have lawyers registered for multiple different jurisdictions (and paying for that service will probably cost extra on your jurisdiction). I would be surprised if any companies have lawyers with ALL jurisdictions, you'll either need multiple lawyers on retainer, or just avoid getting caught in certain territory.

And all of that is rather moot if the corporation decides that it doesn't want your particular lawyer to be represented, or that, for whatever reason, your crime doesn't warrant a standard trial.

[Ascalaphus]

1: Seems reasonable.

2: Megacorps (AA and AAA) are pretty much sovereign in their own right. They have their own laws, and their extraterritorial possessions are bound by those laws. If you committed a crime on Renraku soil, the UCAS has nothing to do with that. The UCAS might extradite you to Renraku, but no crime has been committed on UCAS soil, so the UCAS courts aren't involved.

3: Megacorps have their own laws. Some are nicer than others.

[CanRay]

3: Megacorps have their own laws. Some are nicer than others.

Nice?

[Doc Chase]

I would think that since the Corporate Court grants extraterritoriality and has some sort of agreement with most of the nations of the world that there is a universal bar exam so lawyers can represent their clients in more than one area. This would streamline the legal process and allow corporations to represent their clients when caught on national (or other corporate) soil, have a judgement agreed upon by everyone to be fair and balanced, and would allow public defenders paid for by the state to be used anywhere. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Alternatively, the courts may very well push their lawbreakers off to the host country's legal system much like we do today. Get caught in Seattle on Renraku territory, be prosecuted as according to UCAS law. Get nailed on an Evo territory in Russia - well, I hear the gulags aren't nice this time of year.

[Mooncrow]

Today, while a lawyer has to be a member of the bar association of whatever locale your being tried in to represent you solo; the easy work-around is to associate with a local attorney for that case. Your attorney still represents ;you, and the local is there to advise on the variations in the law for the area.

It would really have to be similar in SR, there's simply no way in that type of Balkanized world that you could have a universal lawyer. At least half of each Bar Exam is on the local law, and no one is good enough to remember every variation.

[Dahrken]

Nice?

Yeah. Nice to them. I particularly like a little bit of Astlaner/Aztechnology law : a criminal is the sole responsible for whatever collateral damages Aztlan police does catching him, and the police always comes clean. Even if they use frag grenades in a marketplace...

[darthmord]

Nice?

Some will a little lube before before they have their way with you. Others might ask nicely.

Many won't.

You dont really exist so...

[Doc Chase]

It would really have to be similar in SR, there's simply no way in that type of Balkanized world that you could have a universal lawyer. At least half of each Bar Exam is on the local law, and no one is good enough to remember every variation.

Sure you could. Common corporate law would allow for extraterritorial sites to have their own basic code of laws like any nation does. No killing, no theft, no property damage - these are all common to the great majority of legal systems that exist today. With the easy connection to the Matrix, any lawyer can slot a chip on 'local legal mumbo-jumbo' and have what they need.

Even today, U.S. states are starting to gravitate towards a 'Unversal Bar Exam' that covers common law. A murder trial in Florida is more or less the same as a murder trial in New York.

[sabs]

Corporate Court on ZO?
I would imagine they have high-powered lawyers.

and think about those "mesophylioma" lawyers now. In 2070 I bet they have a field day with shadowrunners trying to get data to force Megacorp X to cough up a tiddy little settlement on the giant class action suit.

Still, I would imagine that outside lawyers specializing in Renkaru Law or Ares Law are..a very minor pool of people.

[Mooncrow]

Sure you could. Common corporate law would allow for extraterritorial sites to have their own basic code of laws like any nation does. No killing, no theft, no property damage - these are all common to the great majority of legal systems that exist today. With the easy connection to the Matrix, any lawyer can slot a chip on 'local legal mumbo-jumbo' and have what they need.

Even today, U.S. states are starting to gravitate towards a 'Unversal Bar Exam' that covers common law. A murder trial in Florida is more or less the same as a murder trial in New York.

Sure, today we're gravitating towards a more unified, federalized legal system, where a Bar Exam could cover multiple locales that more or less use the exact same system. That's not what the SR world was gravitating towards at all, last I checked.

[Smokeskin]

1st, how do you handle payment. So far I'm talking with the GM and I thinking of something like a DocWagon contract. You pay an annual fee to have a lawyer on call, with extra payment if it goes to trial and more service if you pay a larger annual fee.

That is certainly not normal where I live. You pay by the hour in almost all instances. Some standard cases, you pay a flat fee (like writing and registering a deed).

[Ascalaphus]

Nice?

For example, Ares law resembles UCAS law to a far greater degree than Renraku law does. So the chances of any Ares punishment being cruel and unusual aren't as high (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Alternatively, the courts may very well push their lawbreakers off to the host country's legal system much like we do today. Get caught in Seattle on Renraku territory, be prosecuted as according to UCAS law. Get nailed on an Evo territory in Russia - well, I hear the gulags aren't nice this time of year.

Wouldn't that be setting a risky precedent?

[Mooncrow]

That is certainly not normal where I live. You pay by the hour in almost all instances. Some standard cases, you pay a flat fee (like writing and registering a deed).

It's standard for businesses (at least the larger ones) and wealthy individuals (and criminals) who regularly need a lawyer. Retainers are not common at all for anyone else.

[sabs]

Usually the Retainer is above and beyond any specific legal work.

It's for general legal advice, and for them to show up at your house at 3am before the police arrive to take away the dead hooker.

If they have to go to court, or draw up legal papers of any kind, they charge you billable hours.
The retainer is to make sure they'll pick up your call, and be there for you.

[Doc Chase]

Wouldn't that be setting a risky precedent?

How so? Corporate lawyers can slot the local customs pretty fast, and it was established back in Sprawl Survival Guide that judges were available 24/7 (which pissed them off beyond belief) due to the sheer amount of cases on the docket. Either the corp is going to turn them over for a judge to preside in Corp v Shadowrunner or the 'runner's going to disappear due to being SINless and in a potentially nasty place.

I could see a problem with the 'runner blabbing about what he saw re: human rights violations and other stuff, but I'm not seeing much of a better way for a shadowrunner to have a lawyer on retainer with the current balkanization.

Unless you've got common corporate law/universal bar with headware to fill in the blanks depending on where the case is held. Then your UCAS retained lawyer has a staff that can slot the chip, tell him what Mitsuhama corporate law is and how it differs, and he can cover the case. At the same time, one wonders how many shadowrunners are actually prosecuted on corporate grounds. My guess is 'not many'.

[Voran]

I've preferred a Fixer to a Lawyer. A fixer might have the connections necessary to spring you, though it may require a service rather than passing some cash, maybe even the ones that manage to get your criminal SIN 'lost in the system'.

[CanRay]

Yeah. Nice to them. I particularly like a little bit of Astlaner/Aztechnology law : a criminal is the sole responsible for whatever collateral damages Aztlan police does catching him, and the police always comes clean. Even if they use frag grenades in a marketplace...

I'll have to remember that one when I start having drones lay down LMG EX-ex suppressive fire into a crowd. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[czarcasm]

Yeah. Nice to them. I particularly like a little bit of Astlaner/Aztechnology law : a criminal is the sole responsible for whatever collateral damages Aztlan police does catching him, and the police always comes clean. Even if they use frag grenades in a marketplace...

That's not far off from current US criminal law. Under some states' felony murder rules, if a cop shoots a bystander in the course of trying to arrest an offender who is in the course of committing another felony, the offender is liable for murder.

[sabs]

Any death that is the result of committing a felony is concidered murder.

So, you're committing a felony and some security guard runs after you and has a heart attack? congrats you just coped a murder 1 charge.

[Doc Chase]

That's not far off from current US criminal law. Under some states' felony murder rules, if a cop shoots a bystander in the course of trying to arrest an offender who is in the course of committing another felony, the offender is liable for murder.

The cop's also suspended from duty while the shooting is investigated. If civilians are getting hit, chances are the board's going to rule it was a bad shot and he's gonna lose his badge.

[Mooncrow]

Cops also have a pretty specific list of "acceptable risks to take during pursuit" and the like, and if they go off that, they can easily find themselves facing criminal charges of negligent homicide and the department would be likely be liable for lawsuits as well. So the whole "absolving of all responsibility" thing that Aztlan has is pretty far from current law.

[Ascalaphus]

How so?

What I mean is, it could set a bad precedent for an extraterritorial corp to deny their own jurisdiction. If a crime is committed on Renraku soil, and Renraku has it prosecuted in a UCAS court, that sets a precedent that the UCAS has jurisdiction over Renraku. And that's something they schemed so hard to prevent in the first place.

Actually, I think it would violate the Shiawase Decision and Business Recognition Accords for a corp to export jurisdiction over a case that should rightfully be the corp's. It's tempting the Corporate Court to strip the corp of extraterritorial status.

At the same time, one wonders how many shadowrunners are actually prosecuted on corporate grounds. My guess is 'not many'.

Just because captured/extradited shadowrunners might not get the trial they are "entitled" to, doesn't mean the corp couldn't try them if it wanted to. But in practice the runners just get a cranial bomb and a make-up suicide mission most of the time.

I see it like this: formally the SINless have basic human rights, just like citizens. But the few Amnesty-like groups that try to protect the SINless in court are chronically overworked and totally sabotaged. So just because SINless people have the right to a trial according to the UN, doesn't mean legal representation reaches them before they're sentenced to the chair.
The difference with SINners, is that SINners are citizens of this or that sovereign body, who may protect said citizen, and try to get a fair trial. Renraku will make sure Ares doesn't randomly persecute their wageslaves. SINless people have no-one (with real power) to watch out for them.

[Doc Chase]

Ooh, that's true. I hadn't considered that precedent. Leans more towards the 'universal bar exam' idea then, augmented with knowsofts.