[X] My Assistant

[Aaron]

Wait, you're asking Peaceman, a Neo-Anarchist (and, incidentally, a freebie) for your guns? If it was my character, I'd have spent a few CP on a Fixer (p. 290, SR4A) with a decent Connection rating. At the same Connection rating as Peaceman, that's Availability 18 goods before adding additional incentive. That covers pretty much anything you might need (I suppose you could cry about the Panther XXL or the Mitsubishi Yakusoku MRL, but you could always drown your sorrows in that Rating 3 synaptic booster).

It's Shadowrun: you get what you pay for. Don't rely on freebies.

[Chance359]

My point is its not even worth it to buy even a remotely functional fixer as a contact because I face will run circles around him.

[DWC]

I don't know about you, but I'm not paying an NPC 48k to spend 8 weeks finding me a R3 synaptic booster. The current payscale also won't support spending the 290k that I'd need to lay out to get it either.

[SaintHax]

My point is its not even worth it to buy even a remotely functional fixer as a contact because I face will run circles around him.

Very true. Any good face has a DP of 20 and can get availability 41 items (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Or, Avialability 21 items in half the time as the fore mentioned Fixer gets Availability 18 items.

No one is talking about the elephant in the room: the problem is the rules are busted. For one, consider how little connection rating does, compared to its fluff and cost. The connection rating should at least add that many automatic successes, but it adds that many dice for very little gain. The pay for missions isn't even bad, but the lack of everything else is what's sucking.

[Dumori]

Blackmarket pipe line seams to drop the commission as well as the 30% discount. How ever the commission mechanic was not thought though it means trying to get any via a group contact will be costing almost as much as you'd pay for the base-item...

At least the commission should be inplace for say getting a gun off your arms dealer contact it's not like hes then going round looking for other arms dealer to see if they have it ect he'll go to his supply contacts and buy from them for an increase already factored in to the guns price. Also yes a face will beat the shit out of a fixer and cost you less.

[LurkerOutThere]

The pay for missions isn't even bad, but the lack of everything else is what's sucking.

Actually the pay is that bad, it's just sometimes you can supplement that income through other sources. The problem is when you get offered 4-8k for a mission involving bug spirits or blowing up a major landmark.

[DWC]

Very true. Any good face has a DP of 20 and can get availability 41 items (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Or, Avialability 21 items in half the time as the fore mentioned Fixer gets Availability 18 items.

No one is talking about the elephant in the room: the problem is the rules are busted. For one, consider how little connection rating does, compared to its fluff and cost. The connection rating should at least add that many automatic successes, but it adds that many dice for very little gain. The pay for missions isn't even bad, but the lack of everything else is what's sucking.

Actually, I'd love to see Connection Rating reduce the Threshold, since that's more in line with the existing mechanics. Reducing the interval might be nice, too.

[Fringe]

Actually, I'd love to see Connection Rating reduce the Threshold, since that's more in line with the existing mechanics. Reducing the interval might be nice, too.

And that would give an actual reason for a PC face to use a fixer. The fixer's full-time job is finding, buying, and selling black market stuff; in a stat-less world, I'd expect the fixer to have an easier time of it than a shadowrunner who is doing it part-time (at best).

[codemonkey_uk]

Are players supplementing their income by fencing loot (ie, guns/ammo) they picked up on the mission, or only relying on the payments they get for for the job?

I'd figure the typical dead guard has a lot of valuable gear on them.

[SaintHax]

Are players supplementing their income by fencing loot (ie, guns/ammo) they picked up on the mission, or only relying on the payments they get for for the job?

I'd figure the typical dead guard has a lot of valuable gear on them.

There's many problems with this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

1. You can only fence gear for 10% of it's value. The RAW state 30%, iirc, but this is a "Mission special".
2. Vulture syndrom...
2a. in an on going campaign, stealing from incapacitated guards, or excessive equipment (such as construction vehicles, etc) can bring unwanted attention. Public Awarness can come into play. SRM can't deal with this.
2b. From a role playing stand point, very experienced shadowrunners stopping to take a 200 nuyen comlink off a fallen opponent is lame. It's doubtful that someone with 200k nuyen in the bank, 100+ career karma would waste time carrying five Ares Predators and 5 basic comm units, but I've watched players do it. It's easy, b/c you don't have to juggle that stuff in real life.
3. Rule 1 (lame) is to prevent problem 2 (also lame), b/c no one has a better solution.

[RobertB]

Are players supplementing their income by fencing loot (ie, guns/ammo) they picked up on the mission, or only relying on the payments they get for for the job?

I'd figure the typical dead guard has a lot of valuable gear on them.

From the Missions FAQ:

Can I fence the gear I found during an adventure?
You may sell back items which you find during the adventure at 10% of retail (book) value. If it is damaged, you’ll be lucky to get anything for it, unless it is a very expensive or unusual item. Vehicles, drones, commlinks, and similar equipment can usually be fenced if they have taken three (3) or less boxes of damage, but be prepared to get much lower payout on these items.

and

Can I buy used cyberware or get it from “former enemies?”
Used cyberware is not available at character creation (Second Hand Cyberware, p. 32, Augmentation). Cyberware harvested from former enemies cannot be implanted into a new host and cannot be fenced; we suggest leaving it in the former enemies.


So, you're not getting a lot from fencing stuff.

Robert (aka Spanner)

[Chance359]

I mean if you're able to get enough money together to actually improve your ware/gear, that would be unbalanced.

[Aaron]

1. You can only fence gear for 10% of it's value. The RAW state 30%, iirc, but this is a "Mission special".

Actually, I think you'll find that if you go by strict RAW, looted gear is worth either 10% or nothing, depending on the GM's take. If you take a look at the Street Costs table on p. 312 of your hymnal, you'll see that used is -20%, used in a crime under investigation is -10%, and stolen is -20%. I believe the 10% value rule for Missions was a concession by management to make sold goods worth something, rather than nothing.

[SaintHax]

Aaron, you are looking at values used to "buy" (that table is addressed in "Street Values" paragraph, which talks about buying loot, and before Fencing) stolen goods. After that, there is a section on Fencing, which states average asking price is 30% normal value. The very definition of "fencing" makes the item stolen, so SR4 has taken in the various variables and given you a nice, easy 30% number. Later they do mention that condition may factor in.

It's not 100% cut and dry, spelled out for you-- fewer things are in this edition than the last. However, it would be simply ludicris to think that SR4 would down grade a stolen panther assualt canon you used in a crime to a 0 nuyen value if you tried to fence it. In addition, if you are of the church of table "Street Costs" applies to fencing loot still; then you'd still not be selling at 10%. A 100 nuyen piece of swag, starts at 30 nuyen to fence. It's stolen, blah, blah for another -30%. The price you get is then 21 nuyen. Seventy % of 30 is 21, which is over double 10% of market value.

[noonesshowmonkey]

In smaller payout missions, it is up to the GM and the player to work out some kind of a contact-related scheme to get some new 'ware. Doing favors for people that sell or implant cyberware can earn a samurai a piece of new gear 'at cost' - 20% of the book listed price or some such. There is nothing in Missions that I know of that states a player can't receive payment 'in kind'. Basically, the low run payouts in Missions shouldn't limit the player or GM's creativity in finding new and other ways to justify high ticket items.

[Aaron]

Aaron, you are looking at values used to "buy" (that table is addressed in "Street Values" paragraph, which talks about buying loot, and before Fencing) stolen goods. After that, there is a section on Fencing, which states average asking price is 30% normal value. The very definition of "fencing" makes the item stolen, so SR4 has taken in the various variables and given you a nice, easy 30% number. Later they do mention that condition may factor in.

That's true, but I'm also looking at the section following it. Specifically, the last sentence of the paragraph that puts the base price at 30%. Then I talk about the GM's take in my post. I'm guessing you don't like the idea of the GM modifying the price of goods sold by PCs with the same criteria as those sold by NPCs, which is fine at a private table, but I can't agree with for a shared-universe type game.

It's not 100% cut and dry, spelled out for you-- fewer things are in this edition than the last. However, it would be simply ludicris to think that SR4 would down grade a stolen panther assualt canon you used in a crime to a 0 nuyen value if you tried to fence it.

Oh, I don't think it's zero (although I'm sure a fence would take it from you for free), but it might be "not interested." Fences aren't ATM machines, y'know, or Final Fantasy shops; they need to be able to store the goods without fear of arrest or retribution and sell those goods for a profit.

In addition, if you are of the church of table "Street Costs" applies to fencing loot still; then you'd still not be selling at 10%. A 100 nuyen piece of swag, starts at 30 nuyen to fence. It's stolen, blah, blah for another -30%. The price you get is then 21 nuyen. Seventy % of 30 is 21, which is over double 10% of market value.

That's exactly the thinking that was one side of the argument when it came up when I was co-coordinator. The other side was zero. Did I mention that 10% was a compromise figure? I'm sorry, I didn't make that clear. Some folks wanted 20%, some wanted zero, so we went with 10% so that players could get something. Maybe you could convince Bull to make it 20%, or 30%, or even 100%. But whether you agree with it or not, that's the history.

[DWC]

In smaller payout missions, it is up to the GM and the player to work out some kind of a contact-related scheme to get some new 'ware. Doing favors for people that sell or implant cyberware can earn a samurai a piece of new gear 'at cost' - 20% of the book listed price or some such. There is nothing in Missions that I know of that states a player can't receive payment 'in kind'. Basically, the low run payouts in Missions shouldn't limit the player or GM's creativity in finding new and other ways to justify high ticket items.

The "payments in kind" are the affiliation tasks, where you take on a side job in exchange for the contents of the mystery box.

Setting that aside, there's a massive logistical problem with your solution. Within the bounds of a 3.5 hour convention slot, there's often barely enough time to complete faction tasks and the primary mission. Expecting a GM to come up with an errand on the fly for all 6 PCs at the table so that they can acquire the thing that they want but can't afford because 1 of them sabotaged the job in exchange for the contents of the mystery box (which he is about to find out that he has no use for) is pretty much an impossibility.

[suoq]

Some folks wanted 20%, some wanted zero, so we went with 10% so that players could get something. Maybe you could convince Bull to make it 20%, or 30%, or even 100%. But whether you agree with it or not, that's the history.

I would love to see more posts like this. It is incredibly comforting to understand the reasoning behind some things. Thank you.

[noonesshowmonkey]

The "payments in kind" are the affiliation tasks, where you take on a side job in exchange for the contents of the mystery box.

Setting that aside, there's a massive logistical problem with your solution. Within the bounds of a 3.5 hour convention slot, there's often barely enough time to complete faction tasks and the primary mission. Expecting a GM to come up with an errand on the fly for all 6 PCs at the table so that they can acquire the thing that they want but can't afford because 1 of them sabotaged the job in exchange for the contents of the mystery box (which he is about to find out that he has no use for) is pretty much an impossibility.

I don't play at Cons.

[RobertB]

I don't play at Cons.

C'mon, you should specify this kind of thing up front. When we discuss Missions, the default assumption is that we're talking about Missions in a convention environment. Home Missions with time to spare are a completely different animal.

Robert (aka Spanner)

[Fringe]

In smaller payout missions, it is up to the GM and the player to work out some kind of a contact-related scheme to get some new 'ware. Doing favors for people that sell or implant cyberware can earn a samurai a piece of new gear 'at cost' - 20% of the book listed price or some such. There is nothing in Missions that I know of that states a player can't receive payment 'in kind'. Basically, the low run payouts in Missions shouldn't limit the player or GM's creativity in finding new and other ways to justify high ticket items.

And as long as such a "contact-related scheme" is consistent with the Mission and SRM rules, I would think that's fine. And my reading is that's what you're trying to do.

Since I do play my Missions character at cons, though, I would try to document everything I could about how it went down, just to make sure my character is still Missions-legal. Not that I've ever seen a full audit done (in a four-hour slot?), but I do try to look at character sheets when I GM.

[noonesshowmonkey]

And as long as such a "contact-related scheme" is consistent with the Mission and SRM rules, I would think that's fine. And my reading is that's what you're trying to do.

Since I do play my Missions character at cons, though, I would try to document everything I could about how it went down, just to make sure my character is still Missions-legal. Not that I've ever seen a full audit done (in a four-hour slot?), but I do try to look at character sheets when I GM.

Emphasis mine.

If I were to GM at a con, I would want people to let me take a look see at their character sheets and I would scowl mighty heavily on someone that is loaded down with things that don't jive. Back it up with some good documentation or bring a new sheet.

@ RobertB: I was not trying to be flip. I did not realize that talking about running missions outside of cons (of which I ran most of Season 1) was not germane to the discussion. I do see, however, that if most of you do in fact play at Cons, then I am the odd man out. Sorry about that.

[RobertB]

@ RobertB: I was not trying to be flip. I did not realize that talking about running missions outside of cons (of which I ran most of Season 1) was not germane to the discussion. I do see, however, that if most of you do in fact play at Cons, then I am the odd man out. Sorry about that.

No, no, it IS germane to the discussion. It's just that if you had stated that you only run home Missions in your post, the reply might have been a bit more specific to your situation, instead of one that addresses the problem in a con setting.

Robert (aka Spanner)

[KarmaInferno]

There's two basic differences between a home game and a convention game.

At conventions, usually:

a) You have a hard time limit.

b) Your players have paid money to be at your table.*

Both, unfortunately, tend to discourage heavily auditing characters.

That said, looking over a sheet and pointing out obvious problems isn't a horrible thing. I'd just tell the player to correct the problem instead of telling him to leave/get a new sheet, though.



-karma

* - sometimes a considerable amount of money, between convention fees, table fees, airline fees, and hotel fees

[Fringe]

At conventions, usually:

a) You have a hard time limit.

b) Your players have paid money to be at your table.*

Quite right.

I have, however, seen audits done for other games (Living Forgotten Realms) in the context of a 4-hour slot. It's rare, but I've seen it happen.