Ultrasound vs Improved Invisibility, Does one counter the other? Options

[Elfenlied]

Hello all,
a little question came up during yesterday's game, and it's about whether ultrasound googles counter improved invisibility. Now, the ultrasound sight modification specifically mentions that it counter "invisibility", while Improved Invisibility mentions that it affect technological devices. I read this as "ultrasound counters standard invisbility, but not the improved version". One of my players believes that it counters all forms of invisibility.

Who's right, from a RAW standpoint?

[Wasabi]

Invisibility and Improved Invisibility counter sight. If it counts as sight its countered.
Does Ultrasound count as sight? When built into any camera, goggle, contact lenses and ONLY into them I'd say yes.

Physical means it affects things that did or did not cost essence.
Not Physical means it only affects living beings and items that did cost essence. (implants)

Ultrasound is only useful when a non-implanted ultrasound system is used against the manabased Invisibility spell.

[Dakka Dakka]

Ultrasound "vision" is not sight, it is a process that maps the reflected soundwaves into a picture. No visible light is involved. So this means improved invisibility is countered. Normal invisibility is countered as well, because the person using ultrasound is not looking at the invisible person but at an image generated from the reflected soundwaves.

[Wasabi]

Dakka Dakka, in your opinion would a Silence spell work against Ultrasound?

[Dakka Dakka]

Yup, the spell's description even says so.

[Aerospider]

Ultrasound "vision" is not sight, it is a process that maps the reflected soundwaves into a picture. No visible light is involved. So this means improved invisibility is countered. Normal invisibility is countered as well, because the person using ultrasound is not looking at the invisible person but at an image generated from the reflected soundwaves.

DD is pretty much bang on the money here. Consider the following:

- An imp-invisible person can hear you (i.e. your soundwaves impact on him)
- You can hear an imp-invisible person (i.e. their soundwaves impact on you)
- The imp-invisibility spell does not target or affect technological devices more than or in different ways to living observers
Ergo, ultrasound works.

[Smokeskin]

I also play with Silence working against ultrasound, but more like a darkness spell than invisibility. When looking with ultrasound at a Silenced area, you don't get an echo back from the area, so you know there's something messing with your sensor - but you can't see what is going on inside or pick targets. The Silence spell description also says that it works by "jamming" sensors.

[nezumi]

Ultrasound only cuts the penalty for invisibility in half.

Silence only sort of works. If someone has a silence spell cast on him and walks in front of a wall, you see a big empty spot in front of the wall. A little suspicious. You still can't target the character directly, however.

[Ascalaphus]

I'm with Smokeskin and Dakka on this. Silence as "darkness" makes sense.

Of course, a mage could just carry some sort of white-noise generator that specifically affects ultrasound. But there is no single spell that completely hides you. Shadowrun is full of move and countermove.

[Dakka Dakka]

Of course, a mage could just carry some sort of white-noise generator that specifically affects ultrasound. But there is no single spell that completely hides you. Shadowrun is full of move and countermove.

But by RAW you could make one. The drain for Improved Undetectability is only one higher than Improved Invisibility.

[Karoline]

Hello all,
a little question came up during yesterday's game, and it's about whether ultrasound googles counter improved invisibility. Now, the ultrasound sight modification specifically mentions that it counter "invisibility", while Improved Invisibility mentions that it affect technological devices. I read this as "ultrasound counters standard invisbility, but not the improved version". One of my players believes that it counters all forms of invisibility.

Who's right, from a RAW standpoint?

Funnily enough I cannot find where it actually says that, though it is something I remember being the case forever. One thing to check is if Invisibility is capitalized (without being the first word of a sentence) because spells are always capital, while an effect like invisibility is not. Thus Invisibility and invisibility are two different things.

But yeah, like others have said, Invisibility and II counter someone's ability to see you, not hear you, and ultrasound is just highly sophisticated hearing.

[nezumi]

M&M p. 18 "because this system builds images from sound and transforms them into visual input, indirect illusion spells that affect sight do not affect this system.... However, because the character is not being viewed directly, they cannot be targeted by magic. Modify by +4 the target numbers for any other actions directed at characters "visible" only through ultrasound vision.
...
Cybernetic ultrasound sight is affected by mana-based indirect illusion spells (in addition to physical spells), because it has been purchased with Essence."

So I was wrong - ultrasound vision only works against invisibility when it's not implanted as cyber. When implanted, ultrasound only divides vision penalties by half (in other words, generally useless, compared to buying thermo & low-light for half the price).

[Yerameyahu]

Which is exactly why you don't bother with cyber-versions of sensors you can velcro to your chest. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

Unless you are playing an earlier edition (3rd I think) M&M is absolutely irrelevant.

[Glyph]

Ultrasound works against both forms of invisibility because, as someone said, it is basically a computer-generated rendering projected onto the user's field of vision. The description specifically says it works against invisibility.

[Elfenlied]

So, Ultrasound trumps Invisibility, unless I use a modified multi-sense invisibility spell with higher drain. Is that correct?

[Irion]

I also play with Silence working against ultrasound, but more like a darkness spell than invisibility.

Simple Question:
I am scanning the sky with ultrasound. How would I see a bird with a silent spell?

[Saint Sithney]

Wait, ultrasound? Did the teams UWB radar get jammed despite the hacker's r5 ECCM? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

[Summerstorm]

Simple Question:
I am scanning the sky with ultrasound. How would I see a bird with a silent spell?

You wouldn't. It measures as: NOTHING here. Since you "look" into the sky all you see is emptiness. If you look onto a wall and someone with silence is between you and at the wall... you won't see the wall (he is sucking in all vibrations... hmm.. sounds dirty). That might give his ESTIMATE location. (Somewhere in that field of silence.. if it is an area spell)

[Karoline]

You wouldn't. It measures as: NOTHING here. Since you "look" into the sky all you see is emptiness. If you look onto a wall and someone with silence is between you and at the wall... you won't see the wall (he is sucking in all vibrations... hmm.. sounds dirty). That might give his ESTIMATE location. (Somewhere in that field of silence.. if it is an area spell)

Or a cartoon style outline if it isn't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Indeed, Saint Sithney. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Ultrasound is for chumps these days. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Karoline]

Hmm, 31:1 on the poll. Rarely have I seen DS so united in an opinion.

[Udoshi]

Hmm, 31:1 on the poll. Rarely have I seen DS so united in an opinion.

No kidding. Since when did we get over 31 regular posters?

[Karoline]

Some could be lurkers. I'm sure we've got 20ish people at least who post very regularly, and plenty more with the occasional post, and then a number of lurkers. It is a fairly good turnout on a poll though.

[Draco18s]

Hmm, 31:1 on the poll. Rarely have I seen DS so united in an opinion.

Ah, the only question in which everyone can agree on a single answer. The holy grail of forums.

No kidding. Since when did we get over 31 regular posters?

42 posters now (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)