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> Package deals, Take the good with the bad...
Siege
post Mar 2 2004, 07:31 PM
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It occured to me that characters coming from certain backgrounds may have access to gear, skills and 'ware that might not otherwise be available.

Before exploring specifics -- how do GMs feel about players taking "package deals" that offer specific benefits and drawbacks?

Like minimum skill requirements ("To have been a soldier you need to have these skills at these minimums") but you also get to buy skills you might not otherwise have access to ("Sure, you learned how to operate LMGs and Demolitions") and you get this ware at a discount since you were part of a manufacturing line, but you also have these drawbacks: Military Record -2, Cyberware is UCAS military issue and easily identifable -1.

-Siege
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Solstice
post Mar 2 2004, 07:35 PM
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My GM has a fierce love for these kinds of things. I however do not. In fact I hate them. If I want some kind of package deal I will design it into my character with his background. Group approval pending, of course. My GM has a bad habit of doing things like "oh well since you used to work for Ares then you have prototype Delta ware for free" and stuff like that, I dislike.
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Rev
post Mar 2 2004, 07:54 PM
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You are talking about classes.

Ick.

But I do think that a limited amount of this sort of thing could be fine. Just don't make these "packages" very large. For example it might be good to require either b/r skill + shop, a mechanic contact, or a direclty applicable knowledge skill (ie shadow mechanics) to start out with a modified vehicle.
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Siege
post Mar 2 2004, 07:57 PM
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QUOTE (Rev)
You are talking about classes.

Gasp! *cringe*

Actually, not really. In theory, it would help flesh out certain popular concepts and give GMs some influence on what it means to be a soldier, for example.

Especially for GMs who like justifications for certain types of gear and skills.

-Siege
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Jpwoo
post Mar 2 2004, 08:39 PM
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This seems like adding rules to something that the venerable 20+ questions handled just fine.

On an unrelated 20Q note, did you ever notice how easy it was to answer complicated details about a persons family life, but coming up with a damn street name would take a hour?
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Crimson Jack
post Mar 2 2004, 08:43 PM
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We do something similar to this when we game. Everyone gets a starting package that they get to pick out for their character. Normally, its a mixture of skills and items that match the character concept the player has for me to approve. I give them three options on things that set them apart and are in line with their occupation or hobbies.

I like the idea Siege used, as it directly relates to the uniformity of the military. Certain groups/organizations/occupations would have requirements necessary for the job. So, I guess they'd be similar to prestige classes. I shudder, only on the inside. Externally, it works.

Going off that idea, I think you might get some more mileage out of this if there are different requirements for different corps. Love the idea though. :)
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Shockwave_IIc
post Mar 2 2004, 09:10 PM
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I'm in favour for the idea, It comes with the fact that a good background/ concept will grant (in most circles) a lvl of leance (sp?) in skill and equipment selection.

I been interested in playing an Arcology victim but by canon rules i can't cost of the requirements via cyberware and such.
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Jpwoo
post Mar 2 2004, 09:18 PM
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QUOTE
as it directly relates to the uniformity of the military.


Uniformity of what military? There are lots of militarys with lots of different ways of doing things.

The purpose of a tool or a rule should be to make something easier, more realistic, or allow for something that isn't allready allowed for under another rule. These packages could end up being nice guidlines for new players, and in that capacity I think they would be good. But SR is pretty close to a no training wheels system.
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Jason Farlander
post Mar 2 2004, 10:09 PM
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QUOTE (Jpwoo)
On an unrelated 20Q note, did you ever notice how easy it was to answer complicated details about a persons family life, but coming up with a damn street name would take a hour?

Yeah. I hate that. I sometimes find it easier to plan out entire campaigns than to come up with a single street name I like.
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TheOneRonin
post Mar 2 2004, 10:45 PM
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I use packages a lot, simply for the sake of sanity. There's a lot of room for abuse in the SR character creation system, and if you let them, players will come up with all sorts of nonsense skill/training/gear combos.

Granted, most of the packages I use are for CAS/UCAS military service, but I will custom write one for other characters depending upon the player's backstory.

Otherwise, you have people creating things like the ex-UCAS Navy Seal that doesn't have a parachuting or Assault Rifles skill because the player didn't want to spend his points on it. That sort of thinking really trashes my suspension of disbelief. Thus when my players want to create a character that has some formal training/experience in a chosen profession, I create a base package and go from there.
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Crimson Jack
post Mar 2 2004, 10:58 PM
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QUOTE (Jpwoo)
QUOTE
as it directly relates to the uniformity of the military.


Uniformity of what military? There are lots of militarys with lots of different ways of doing things.

Just read the rest of my post. I go on to talk about making different requirements... blah blah blah... it's all there for you dude. :P
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Lantzer
post Mar 3 2004, 01:56 PM
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QUOTE (Jpwoo)
This seems like adding rules to something that the venerable 20+ questions handled just fine.

On an unrelated 20Q note, did you ever notice how easy it was to answer complicated details about a persons family life, but coming up with a damn street name would take a hour?

Yes. One thing A GM I know of thought about doing, was having other people come up with a character's street name.

As a book I read once pointed out... People sometimes have 3 names:

1) The one they were born with,
2) The one they call themselves, and
3) The one they earn.

You seldom see runnners with name #1, for obvious reasons. You seldom see runners with name #3, which is a pity. You do get a lot of runners with name #2, which often makes them look like a poser.

"Hi, I am ....
1) Michael Nagato, Billy Rae McCormik, Sandy Billings, Juan Valdez...
2) Darkstalker, Nightwalker, Shadowknight, Mr. Death, Blur, ...
3) Goose, Jackrabbit, Dumbass, Thud, Bilge, Cheeto, Jeez, Fly, Mr. Congeniality..."
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Jpwoo
post Mar 3 2004, 05:00 PM
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QUOTE
Just read the rest of my post. I go on to talk about making different requirements... blah blah blah... it's all there for you dude. 


I guess my point here is that military training sometimes is, "Here is a gun, here is a uniform, goodluck and serve the generissmo well." all the way up to special forces.

QUOTE
Otherwise, you have people creating things like the ex-UCAS Navy Seal that doesn't have a parachuting or Assault Rifles skill because the player didn't want to spend his points on it. That sort of thinking really trashes my suspension of disbelief. Thus when my players want to create a character that has some formal training/experience in a chosen profession, I create a base package and go from there.


This works, and I agree that skill sets should match backgrounds. But do we need a formalize package to do it? Some people would love this. Just not me :D

QUOTE
3) Goose, Jackrabbit, Dumbass, Thud, Bilge, Cheeto, Jeez, Fly, Mr. Congeniality..."


I have known a few PC's who should be called dumbass. What I really want to know is how do you get the name Bilge.

We play in an ongoing Aftermath! campaign where if you don't name your character, and name him something decent one of the NPC's will start calling you an appropriate name. And all the PC's better use it. Spaz and Spanky are the two names that come to mind.
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Lily
post Mar 4 2004, 08:10 AM
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We also have a habit of sitting around and discussing character concepts and applicable skills. We often give players with a playable concept a lot of leeway in creating a character that would otherwise be illegal as a starting character.

EX: A guy we play with decided he liked the idea of playing a cybermantic subject freed from the employ of a woman who was done in by another PC. We all agreed that the character had an 'in' with the group and would be interesting to see developped; so we allowed him a whole bunch of free deltaware and corresponding skills that didn't take away from his 'starting character' karma allowance. The character has since retiredfrom the shadows, but he was a lot of fun to play with. We also have had a few other 'rule breaking' character types, but the important thing is that our whole team usually has approval of a PC before they join the team.

Lily
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John Campbell
post Mar 4 2004, 09:45 AM
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1st edition Mechwarrior offered academy training skill packages that gave certain fixed sets of skills for a slightly lower price than you'd pay buying them normally. I think something like that would work in Shadowrun, too... reduced price to reflect that you got them as part of a formal training program rather than picking them up as you went along, but counterbalanced by removing some of the element of choice from your skill selection - you got what the program trained you in, not necessarily what you wanted to know. You might be getting 22 points of skills for 20 points, but that might be 18 points of skills you really want and 4 that you would've used for something else, given full choice in the matter.
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FlakJacket
post Mar 4 2004, 02:44 PM
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Blue Planet has - or at least had, since that line seems to have stopped - something similar for character creation. It was a lot more restrictive than what people would probably want for Shadowrun though. Although, packages used wisely could be a good thing.
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Cray74
post Mar 4 2004, 03:09 PM
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QUOTE (Rev)
You are talking about classes.

I don't see these as classes. Mechwarrior 1 & 2 RPGs did something similar to these packages.

A character could take "(military) university" or "(military) academy" skill packages, which gave a group of fixed-level skills at a lower cost than purchasing the skills separately.

Note:
1) The skills in the packages were a bit vague, like giving "piloting-3 and gunnery-2" The player would then have the option of deciding exactly what kind of piloting and gunnery skills those were - if the player wanted a fighter pilot, the piloting skill would be Aerospace Fighter Piloting-3.
2) There were always left over skill points to spend on other skills, OR to enhance the package skills.
3) After taking the package at character creation, the package had absolutely no further effect on the character. The player was not constrained to spending points on "class" skills or having easier access to those skills.
4) Except for influencing starting skills, the package did not determine the character's saves, combat abilities, or future character development.
5) At no time was it required a character take a skill package (unless the GM required it, to get characters with similar backgrounds). It was just cost-efficient to do so.

Essentially, all the "package" of skills did was give the PC a bunch of skills at somewhat lower cost, with the drawback that the skills were from a limited list.

That, to me, is not a class. It's just a means of outlining the effects of a group of characters going through the same military academy (or other training).
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Fortune
post Mar 5 2004, 12:39 AM
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I don't mind this idea. I used to have a couple of skill packages for ex-military types when I was running a Merc campaign and they seemd to work pretty nicely. No real dramatic effect, but it gave the characters the appropriate skills for their backgrounds.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Mar 5 2004, 01:20 AM
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While this is probably not an angle you wanted people to look at the idea from, I might be interested in doing this for my medieval fantasy Shadowrun.

The reasons: It allows people without complete understanding of the game world to easily create characters of a certain background, belonging to certain groups, having done certain kinds of things, etc etc. Additionally, it would help me abuse the (over-)abundant classes and prestige classes for the Forgotten Realms setting -- mostly for fluff text and inspiration, though.

The first also goes for 2060s Shadowrun, the second not so much...

Does someone have an idea how to do this with BeCKS? I'm sure it's easily doable, but I'm too tired right now and I've got a haunting feeling there might be some problems there; more than with the (otherwise) canon creation systems, anyway.
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