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> AI Character..., Some questions and a request
GM Lich
post Aug 8 2010, 08:34 PM
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So I've been playing as an AI character, and i gotta say I like being one for our SR game.
A couple of troubles through,
  • my question/request is there an Ai character sheet my google fu and forum searching has lead me to nothing notable so I was wondering if perhaps dumpshock had one? It would be nice if there was one but I doubt there is one.
  • Acording to the ruling to my GM, do Ai's not use their attributes. Acording to his ruling they only use Skill+Program no attributes. To me this doesn't make sense and it sorta of screws over the AI
  • Also can Ai eventually learn how to summon sprites or something, I remeber reading it somewhere but was unsure.

Thanks Dumpshock
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Summerstorm
post Aug 8 2010, 09:45 PM
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1. Hm, no idea... never seen one. I used a standard one for an AI.
2. Correct, Attributes do not factor directly into most rolls. BUT they are important nontheless. They decide your rating (which is VERY important) the value by which you improve your home node ( VEEEERY important) and the starting rating of your chosen innate programs. Also you still have normal skills, for which you have to use them. So i don't see why an AI should get an extra in the matrix. Nobody uses their attributes there.
3. Nope. an AI can not gain any technomancer abilities. You have to make due with agents.
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NetWraith
post Aug 9 2010, 12:10 AM
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In Unwired pg. 169 you do have Emulate. It allows you to thread programs like TMs. I'd doub;e check with you're gm to see if he'd allow it for a PC, unless there's an errata for Unwired that's covered the AI qualities that I missed.
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Karoline
post Aug 9 2010, 01:52 AM
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QUOTE (NetWraith @ Aug 8 2010, 07:10 PM) *
In Unwired pg. 169 you do have Emulate. It allows you to thread programs like TMs. I'd doub;e check with you're gm to see if he'd allow it for a PC, unless there's an errata for Unwired that's covered the AI qualities that I missed.

No, it allows you to emulate programs in a fashion that is similar to the way a TM threads a program. Those are two entirely different things. It is in no way threading or TM related at all, except that it has fairly similar results and mechanics.
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GM Lich
post Aug 9 2010, 02:27 AM
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Alright thanks guys, as for the character sheet, I thought there would be a best thing since the standard seems to waste so much room.


Any advice for character optimization AI wise, I was focused mostly on hacking but now I'm spending it on fogery and probaly rigging I do have piloting orgin 2? Any general advice perhaps? Also Agents worth getting they seem to be like sprites expect dumber.
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Karoline
post Aug 9 2010, 02:30 AM
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Can always just make your own CS if you don't like the one that is provided.

As for advice, really don't have any, as AI and Cyborg are about the only two character types that I haven't made yet, and really don't even know all the rules for them off hand. I would imagine that for a large part you'd build them the same as you would a Hacker/Rigger.
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DeathStrobe
post Aug 9 2010, 03:55 AM
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QUOTE (GM Lich @ Aug 9 2010, 03:27 AM) *
Any advice for character optimization AI wise, I was focused mostly on hacking but now I'm spending it on fogery and probaly rigging I do have piloting orgin 2? Any general advice perhaps? Also Agents worth getting they seem to be like sprites expect dumber.

Most AI's can't rig. I'm not sure what kind of AI you are. But AI's don't have brains to transmit simsense signals, so can't jump in to a drone. However, it should still be possible for you to use a command program to control a drone.
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Makki
post Aug 9 2010, 06:43 AM
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i have an AI char. and there ar e some really big advantages. get inherent Command and push with Karma to ~10, now you're in the game. Inherent Stealth makes you invisible, so you don't need high dice pools, because you have all the time in the world. they won't find you. Get Piloting Origin Quality, now you can buy autosofts instead of skills, saves you tons of BP.
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Sengir
post Aug 9 2010, 09:30 AM
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QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Aug 9 2010, 04:55 AM) *
Most AI's can't rig. I'm not sure what kind of AI you are.

The kind of AI with
QUOTE (GM Lich @ Aug 9 2010, 03:27 AM) *
I do have piloting orgin 2

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And an advice, although not exactly related to AIs: Forgery is not worth it, especially if you can just hack the verification system
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Udoshi
post Aug 9 2010, 02:37 PM
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QUOTE (NetWraith @ Aug 8 2010, 06:10 PM) *
In Unwired pg. 169 you do have Emulate. It allows you to thread programs like TMs. I'd doub;e check with you're gm to see if he'd allow it for a PC, unless there's an errata for Unwired that's covered the AI qualities that I missed.


Intuitive Hacking, actually, covers this since its just one action. Go go gadget normally-useless quality.

Also, its worth pointing out that Exceptional Attribute is potentially a very solid buy for an AI character. It has the potential to cause your stats to round up(round up is not round half up!) to an AI rating of 7, but that takes a while.
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Sephiroth
post Aug 9 2010, 05:38 PM
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Over in the Community Projects forum, the Excel character generator made by DamienKnight is something you may find useful. It has many of the AI details built in by now, you just need to pick AI as a race.
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Neraph
post Aug 9 2010, 06:32 PM
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Here's the AI I'll be using soon, based on Automata. Still got a little tweaking to do though.

[ Spoiler ]


The small number of house rules in use are:
1) I can get modular full arms.
2) Walker mode gives drones within reason capacity like full arms do, and I can get them modular.
3) Powered Retractable Folding Stock can be used on a telescoping staff to make it telescope at the press of a button/wireless signal.
4) As a Medium Drone, I have 1 more Sensor capacity than a Small drone (the chart jumps from small drone to large drone).
5) AIs can take some other positive/negative qualities, such as: Born Rich, Day Job, In Debt, Martial Arts (only for Piloting Origins though), and a few others that may escape me at the moment. I always found it interesting you can have a legal SINner AI that isn't allowed to have debt or a job...

... That's all I can remember from the top of my head.
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Udoshi
post Aug 9 2010, 07:14 PM
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Neraph:

Nice use of Modular cyberlimbs. I wish I'd thought of that. If you treat cyberlimbs like full arms, there's no reason they can't take it without a houserule (the rules say accessories, but point you to the entire cyberlimb capacity section.) Without the walker mode houserule, its entirely possible to add another full arm and just say 'this represents leg capacity'.
I'm surprised you didn't go Automatics. Nice synergy with cyberlimb gyromounts. But revolvers have -style-, and thats an equally valid reason.
You don't have an Analyzer. As a matrix entity, You need to fix that. Either take it instead of Encrypt, or get a cheap Pro user suite(400Y) to go with your commlink.
4a has a table entry for Medium drones: Its Capacity 6 @ signal 4. So... you're doing it right. And your GM seems fairly reasonable about this kind of thing, too.
You should move your Ultrawideband Radar to a Radar Sensor(exact same rules) in a cyberlimb for 2 capacity on the limb, instead of 2 sensor capacity. You can also take Olfactory Sensors and Ultrasound Sensors(the headware) on arm or leg capacity

Given how reliant you are on your vehicles, you might want Black Market Contacts: Vehicles.(drones are vehicles). Or the same for Software. If you're allowed Overmodding, you should overmod your armor on the manservant - its cheap.
You may want to upgrade the Response chip of the vehicles you pilot. Rigger's skills, drone's attributes - depending on your GM, a commlink on the drone might not be usable for the drone's, say, Dodge pool.
I'm surprised you don't have any Enhancements on your arms. Strength and Agility are cheap.
Big Problem time. Your autosoft costs are off. Above rating 3, they cost Rating x 1000 Nuyen. You're about 22k off. (may want to drop your specialties, and get Cash instead, or drop some down to Rating 3, save even more cash.)
You should look at the Commlink mod in unwired, Optimization. If you're an AI with a few commlinks or even datajacks, optimizing them for your autosofts or tacnet is good and cheap.
See if you can't free up 10BP to raise one of your mental stats to 5 - this will cause your AI rating to round up from 4 to 5, letting you start with another Inherent, and some inherents at a higher rating.
For the price of those drone racks on the police car, you could instead get a Used (20% off to start, price table's on 312 4A, and it adds +4Avail to the car) GM Hermes from arsenal. Comes with em free. Cop car has -style-, though, and nice stats.

just some stuff to think about.
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Neraph
post Aug 9 2010, 07:57 PM
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QUOTE (Udoshi @ Aug 9 2010, 02:14 PM) *
Neraph:

Nice use of Modular cyberlimbs. I wish I'd thought of that. If you treat cyberlimbs like full arms, there's no reason they can't take it without a houserule (the rules say accessories, but point you to the entire cyberlimb capacity section.) Without the walker mode houserule, its entirely possible to add another full arm and just say 'this represents leg capacity'.
I'm surprised you didn't go Automatics. Nice synergy with cyberlimb gyromounts. But revolvers have -style-, and thats an equally valid reason.
You don't have an Analyzer. As a matrix entity, You need to fix that. Either take it instead of Encrypt, or get a cheap Pro user suite(400Y) to go with your commlink.
4a has a table entry for Medium drones: Its Capacity 6 @ signal 4. So... you're doing it right. And your GM seems fairly reasonable about this kind of thing, too.
You should move your Ultrawideband Radar to a Radar Sensor(exact same rules) in a cyberlimb for 2 capacity on the limb, instead of 2 sensor capacity. You can also take Olfactory Sensors and Ultrasound Sensors(the headware) on arm or leg capacity

I may play around with my sensors. The reason why I chose the revolver was because of the style - I have just enough agility to fully load the Cavalier manually, no speedloader required.

Also, I don't have Analyze as I will be interacting through the drone to affect the actual world. See below on that.

Oh, and the Ultrawideband Radar is counted as Ultrasound (page 60 of Arsenal says it works just like Radar Sensor from page 36 of Augmentation, plus the additional special rules in Arsenal. Augmentation says it uses ultrasound visibility modifiers. I think that's enough for it to give the same effects.).

QUOTE (Udoshi @ Aug 9 2010, 02:14 PM) *
Given how reliant you are on your vehicles, you might want Black Market Contacts: Vehicles.(drones are vehicles). Or the same for Software. If you're allowed Overmodding, you should overmod your armor on the manservant - its cheap.
You may want to upgrade the Response chip of the vehicles you pilot. Rigger's skills, drone's attributes - depending on your GM, a commlink on the drone might not be usable for the drone's, say, Dodge pool.

I have a drone store owner as a contact.

For clarity, my home node is the node of the Manservant itself, so based on the lifestyle (Medium), its matrix attributes are all 5's. I then took the two R5 commlinks in the arms and made a cluster node with the main node so I can run more programs, and that's what I'm riding in.

QUOTE (Udoshi @ Aug 9 2010, 02:14 PM) *
I'm surprised you don't have any Enhancements on your arms. Strength and Agility are cheap.
Big Problem time. Your autosoft costs are off. Above rating 3, they cost Rating x 1000 Nuyen. You're about 22k off. (may want to drop your specialties, and get Cash instead, or drop some down to Rating 3, save even more cash.)
You should look at the Commlink mod in unwired, Optimization. If you're an AI with a few commlinks or even datajacks, optimizing them for your autosofts or tacnet is good and cheap.
See if you can't free up 10BP to raise one of your mental stats to 5 - this will cause your AI rating to round up from 4 to 5, letting you start with another Inherent, and some inherents at a higher rating.
For the price of those drone racks on the police car, you could instead get a Used (20% off to start, price table's on 312 4A, and it adds +4Avail to the car) GM Hermes from arsenal. Comes with em free. Cop car has -style-, though, and nice stats.

just some stuff to think about.

I only have access to the Core book, not 4A, where they're listed as R x 500 for R4 (2,000). After double-checking my SR4A updates package, I do not see any change in cost.

Optomization only works for commlinks, although I did consider it. I also thought of Custom Interface. At the initiative I'm at though, it's not really worth getting.

The rating of the agent itself is not important - I'm literally just using it as a robot character. I won't be hacking unless absolutely neccessary, I'll be interacting through rigging.

I don't believe you can get gear with any of the availability options at chargen, otherwise all my gear would be used in 20 murders so I get money for getting the items also.
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GM Lich
post Aug 10 2010, 07:35 PM
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Alright, well as of now I am an AI in a Bust-A-Move Ninja with high lifestyle, I bought a man servant so our local modder will probably do some heavy mods on that. Sounds like I probaly go for rigging.
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Udoshi
post Aug 11 2010, 02:43 AM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 9 2010, 12:57 PM) *
The rating of the agent itself is not important - I'm literally just using it as a robot character. I won't be hacking unless absolutely neccessary, I'll be interacting through rigging.

Look, if you plan on rigging anything else besides yourself, or running wireless at all, you -need- analyze.
Just.... consider for a moment the meatspace world of shadowrun. Lets pretend it uses some of the matrix rules.
Lets say Analyze is your perception skill. And that you can't default on Perception tests. In fact, you can't use it at all without analyze. Lets say that everyone with any sort of Infiltration rating is running it all the time, automatically, and as a side effect prevents you from percieving them at all without an opposed test. No, i'm not kidding. The Matrix is kind of like Submarine warfare.

When you're hacked, you roll Firewall + Analyze to spot the intrustion. You cannot take matrix actions for programs you don't have, and you default at program -1. If you have a firewall, but no analyzer, well, it doesn't roll that. More importantly, anyone running an analyzer on -you- can tell you're not running one(see Matrix Perception Tests. there's a list of questions you're allowed to ask, 1 per net hit, about a target node or icon - running programs is one of them).
Not running an analyzer is begging to be hacked on the matrix, and if you don't mind me being brutally honest..... Its really, supremely stupid for an AI character to not have it. If you have any wireless access at all, whether it be a commlink, a smartlink, a device rating 3 on your datajack - you need Analyze. You need it to spot people, you need it to see viruses, you need it to spot active Traces, and whether someone is eavesdropping on your traffic. You need it to tell if an intruder is in your home node, right now, about to cyberfrag you.
If you plan on remotely rigging with wi-fi at all, such as that Doberman or LEBD-1 I see on your sheet, get an Analyzer or the first time someone tries to steal your drones with electronic warfare - you're screwed. An analyzer is 600 for a rating 6. A Pro User common use program suite is 400 nuyen for Analyze/Browse/Edit @4 + command 2. Its the best 400 nuyen you'll ever spend, just for the headache reduction once gameplay starts.

Just..... thought you might be uninformed as to how important an Analyzer is for everyone to run. Much less an AI, who's home is the matrix and is very much at risk of becoming a prisoner in their own body if they can't see intruders. If you want to interact with the real world in your robot drone, you might want to put some effort into being able to keep interacting with the real world, and that might mean keeping people from jacking your drone body by hacking into it. And that means analyze.

That being said...... if you know what you're doing, disable all your wi-fi, and only use some shades/earphones/argloves connected to an secondary external commlink for your AR needs(So your home node specifically ISN'T on the matrix), and rely on hardwired fiber-optic links to transfer yourself to a new system - then your plan will work. (but at the downside of not being able to Hand of God out through a wifi link).

Basically, it boils down to this. If you're running wifi at all, get an Analyzer.
If you're not, take the wifi off of anything sensitive you don't want hacked, and don't connect it to another device with wifi.
Or just pay the damn nuyen for an analyzer. It is stupid to not have one, especially for an AI.


QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 9 2010, 12:57 PM) *
I only have access to the Core book, not 4A, where they're listed as R x 500 for R4 (2,000). After double-checking my SR4A updates package, I do not see any change in cost.

Yeah, I just checked them side by side. It IS more expensive.(4th 321 vs 4A 330)
Fucking catalyst and their stealth changes.

QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 9 2010, 12:57 PM) *
I don't believe you can get gear with any of the availability options at chargen, otherwise all my gear would be used in 20 murders so I get money for getting the items also.

Normally, you are right. Used Vehicles are a -singular exception-, see Arsenal 104, as are Second Hand Bio- and Cyber-ware, which both have specific entries for exactly what that does.

QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 9 2010, 12:57 PM) *
The rating of the agent itself is not important - I'm literally just using it as a robot character.


Thats not true at -all-. EVEN if you assume that the you will not take any matrix actions, so the rating of your inherents don't matter...the boosts given to the homenode are based on attributes. And those are rounded up. If you spend 10 points to boost the attribute used for Response,you're effectively boosting his agility. Even jumped in, you use your cyber attributes for some stuff, right? like defense, and Initiative. (response + dodge). Snagging another inherent is free lunch.
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Neraph
post Aug 12 2010, 04:47 AM
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/sigh.

Let me see if I can say it this way...

I know exactly how to make and break the game. I know exactly what I can do with an AI to make sure that no-one ever sees me, that I can't be beaten in cybercombat, and how I can sneak up and WTFPWN the opposition. I know how to start off-the-rack, as it were, with a R6 AI capable of going R7 in a home node that is already R6 and still having the skills to be able to function... In fact, pretty much having all the skills you can think about.

I built this character with this particular purpose in mind, intentionally not doing any of the many, many tricks I know. I've also been updating him, so what I posted is not the current version.

Two things about your assertion on Analyze: 1) There's really not that big a deal about turning off your wireless and using another comm for communications, and 2) It's called Hidden Mode. Actually: 3) Analyze is for Matrix Perception, Clearsight is for actual Perception.
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killfr3nzy
post Aug 19 2010, 12:33 PM
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Hmmm, +thoughts to my muddled-up AI-Rigger PC file. I have a question (well, only one for now):

Does the AI take Stun damage from Biofeedback?
Because that would technically be on the Stun track, and an AI has only a Matrix track...
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Neraph
post Aug 19 2010, 04:07 PM
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QUOTE (killfr3nzy @ Aug 19 2010, 06:33 AM) *
Hmmm, +thoughts to my muddled-up AI-Rigger PC file. I have a question (well, only one for now):

Does the AI take Stun damage from Biofeedback?
Because that would technically be on the Stun track, and an AI has only a Matrix track...

No they do not. As they don't have a Stun or Physical track, they are immune to Biofeedback, Black Hammer, and Blackout.
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killfr3nzy
post Aug 19 2010, 07:23 PM
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Woah, badassery. If you only do Rigging, you're effectively invincible. Of course, you can be hacked, and your drone can be destroyed.
It might not fit your character, but what about having your HomeNode be a Micro-/Mini-Rotodrone (Chameleon Coating, Signature Masking etc) with a direct, wired link on the end of Myopic cord? Install all your desired 'bodies' with a smuggling compartment w/ a FaradayCage and a datajack. Get a R1 Possession Spirit on your Rotodrone with the Guard power constantly on to negate glitches...
That way you have an escape plan, for when your 'body' gets shot to hell. Also allows speciality drones (Ie, Manservant w/Mimic for Negotiations/Disguise, Doberman w/ WalkerMode, articulated Weapon Mounts for Full Assaults, etc..)
Viable?
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Neraph
post Aug 20 2010, 05:11 AM
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Yeah. I actually hadn't thought of the escape drone idea. That's a good one, although you can still do it with wireless connections also.

The spirit isn't really neccessary, but can be useful. Also you'd have no way to get one on your own - you'd need to use contacts or groupmates to get ahold of it.
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killfr3nzy
post Aug 20 2010, 01:23 PM
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I had some tricks worked out where mundanes could get karma-cost magic services easily, but I forgot this was an AI. Still easy enough, either try and wrangle it from a Contact for a decent favour (probably represented by cash or in-game aid) or buy something nice for your Mage if he's Possession. I'd be after him all the time if I had one (or played at all). Sure, it'd cost him karma which he need for focus' etc, but he needs cash too. And being able to free up your Edge from Glitch-recovery is just as useful to you (and therefore the group) as being constantly worked on by a Medidrone (like Simon Kerimov's badass example) would be to him (and therefore the group) - "I call him Drain-Repair."
Or to reduce cash-for-karma exploition and related headaches if you lask a Possession-tradition, houserule that you can make deals with Free Spirits, meaning you spend the karma yourself, plus tax. Karma's a vague term, anyway ("Shedim can 'eat' my good deeds and combat experience from saving the President? What the - ").

As for escaping by Wireless, that has a lot of downsides to me - not least that I don't understand most any Matrix rules. But it takes a few actions, leaves you vulnerable to Matrix attack (which any build of mine probably would be), is limited as to where you can go (Team-mates 'link is usually an option, but there are other situations and deadzones), and loses you your kit (tricked-out possessed 'Link, etc)
Having a dedicated transport unit makes transferring 'bodies' far simpler and speedier, as well as safer. Most GM's probably wouldn't think too much before CyberSlaughtering you on an enemy 'Link, making your capture/death assured, but might do about blowing up your body, shooting down your escape-drone, picking through the remains for your miniturized Rigger Cocoon, pulling it apart and emptying a few rounds in your armoured 'Link (and then fragging you on an enemy's comm). Of course, by then he's maybe realized just how hard it is to get you to burn edge, and do it anyway.
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Neraph
post Sep 7 2010, 01:41 AM
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Threadomancy!

Here's the finished KEID I'll be playing tomorrow:

[ Spoiler ]


EDIT: KEID - Knight-Errant Informatics Drone.

EDIT EDIT: That 6,750 nuyen shouldn't be there, and after running my numbers a few times again I seem to be 2,580 in the black. Odd.
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