One of my players is developing his own Corporation?, Anyone got any ideas about player-owned groups? Options

[Crimson]

Hi Dumpshock, I've just recently began posting here but I've been lurking for a while now. I love some of the responses I see other GMs get and have stolen too many to name. So thank you guys for what you've already added to my games. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I currently run two games, both 4th edition. I've been running my first campaign for about 3 years now, it tends to be more of a character-driven/meta-plot type game. I actually converted a group of friends who were into DnD at the time, of course after playing SR for a short while they quit DnD altogether. (lol) And more recently I've started what I call my stand-alone campaign where we do a more Seattle-based, traditional style, usually involving a run per session with downtime for character development in between. I love both games and the weekly style change helps keep me fresh I think. The only real problem I've had is the back pain from carrying around my backpack full of nine books at a time.

In my first game I actually have two players creating their own "associations".

I have a bit of a power gamer PhysAd who now has a 50 man strong ninja clan based in Hong Kong. (Anti-corp hooder sort of group.)

And a mage face who is developing his own Corporation, (He plans to use subterfuge to bring a world corporate war that he'll profit from and hopes to reach AAA status eventually.) both were developed in game over time.

I love the idea of the characters being able to amass people around their causes making them more important in the SR world. I think it brings new roles and options to the players. It really gives a feel of variety to the story overall. The only problem is I worry if kept unchecked without some hard rules it could get out of control. I'm currently using and expanding on the advanced lifestyle rules and making checks for overall development of the groups. Even rolling social checks for Important members and such.

Anyone have any ideas on how I could knock their associations down a peg every now and then?

[Inpu]

Just curious, but does the PhysAd have a SIN? An actual one?

[Crimson]

Nope, he uses fake ones.

[Summerstorm]

Hm... Haven't had that happen that much... once i had a player who earned (and cheated) his way through a lot of crap and ended up with a small import-export business. He had some Chesna's and Helicopters... also a slave. But he retired after he could live off of it. He just wanted to have a nice life, no AA-ambitions or such *g*

Well: To "peg them down a bit": They were (are?) illegal scum, or not? Easy to threaten to destroy everything they built, if someone knows that. Also: Being a "small" corporation is not easy. All who are bigger and see you have some growth will try to destroy you (or just buy it - but that would mean spending money). And for those "hooding ninjas" SOMEONE always squeals. The more people know a secret the less itSTAYS a secret. They will get betrayed.

[Inpu]

All right, one thing he will run into in the corp world is high end scanners for board meetings and the like. Until he gets AA he won't have a real SIN to bypass them if he needs to meet with someone else. A legit business will need legit faces, which carries risks: he better have people he trusts, or his 'friend' will suddenly be a CEO of a potent company and leave him behind. Mitsuhama is a good example: the Yakuza have managed to keep some links, but Mitsuhama is far from beholden to a criminal organization that makes a fraction of what the Megacorp does.

So figure out who is loyal to him, watch what he does and how he wishes to insert himself, and go from there. If he just wants to own stocks, he'll need a real SIN when the money comes pouring in. While he'd technically be able to buy one, it is possible that a competitor would pull the carpet from under his feet as it were.

Otherwise, keep in mind that the moment his corp jumps into the game, he might have to deal with Shadowrun teams sent by competitors. If he perseveres, he may have a money-making machine. The game shifts focus, but can still be fun if you take examples from a lot of the old books and competitions you see between board members. Pretty much any book that details Damien Knight's feuds is good inspiration.

Make sure it takes a Hell of a lot of time, effort, and rebuilding though. If he edges in on another corp, they will try to smash him. Make sure he understands hostile stock takeover too, because a company that is extremely threatened will threaten shareholders.

What kind of company is he thinking? What products/services will they sell initially?

[Mooncrow]

Well, as they get bigger, it's going to be impossible to avoid making enemies (actually, it's pretty much impossible to avoid that at any level in SR^^), so that's always a good tool to use; major orgs hiring shadowrunners against them, etc. But really, you're likely going to have to be writing your own rules for things as you go. (unless there's something on player-owned corps in the Corp Book, which I haven't read yet). Ruling on treacherous managers, hackers stealing important research, all that jazz.

What my group does, is if they're wanting to expand business, it's time for some roleplaying and some major dice rolling. If they want to sit and coast for a bit, I'll have them roll some Logic + Business (Professional skill) rolls and determine profitability and growth from that. Glitches on these rolls are generally really bad news though^^

[Inpu]

Mind that this will also be a sacrifice: businesses are virtually never profitable in their first year (at the least) and so he'd be pouring a lot of money into it as the business tries to match and then exceed its expenses. This means less money spent on running the shadows, so he'd be gambling. Sounds like he has a fair team to take care of things, of course: that many ninja sounds like a small company already.

[Crimson]

All right, one thing he will run into in the corp world is high end scanners for board meetings and the like. Until he gets AA he won't have a real SIN to bypass them if he needs to meet with someone else. A legit business will need legit faces, which carries risks: he better have people he trusts, or his 'friend' will suddenly be a CEO of a potent company and leave him behind. Mitsuhama is a good example: the Yakuza have managed to keep some links, but Mitsuhama is far from beholden to a criminal organization that makes a fraction of what the Megacorp does.

So figure out who is loyal to him, watch what he does and how he wishes to insert himself, and go from there. If he just wants to own stocks, he'll need a real SIN when the money comes pouring in. While he'd technically be able to buy one, it is possible that a competitor would pull the carpet from under his feet as it were.

Otherwise, keep in mind that the moment his corp jumps into the game, he might have to deal with Shadowrun teams sent by competitors. If he perseveres, he may have a money-making machine. The game shifts focus, but can still be fun if you take examples from a lot of the old books and competitions you see between board members. Pretty much any book that details Damien Knight's feuds is good inspiration.

Make sure it takes a Hell of a lot of time, effort, and rebuilding though. If he edges in on another corp, they will try to smash him. Make sure he understands hostile stock takeover too, because a company that is extremely threatened will threaten shareholders.

What kind of company is he thinking? What products/services will they sell initially?

Some good points, thanks. Loyalty and the "human error" will play a constant role as he deals with more and more people.

Well at the moment the mage face has managed to get an arms manufacturing plant running in Shreveport, LA (The game started in our home town.) The plant was obtained when a local gang owed the team a favor and they orchestrated a hostile takeover of an illegal arms factory held by an opposing gang. After an invasion and alot of legal legwork he managed to get it authorized and established as a legal manufacturer, supplying arms to the local Lone Star. Also funneling a large majority into the black market with the help of fore mentioned gang. From this he plans to launch a mother company and then new subsidiaries. From what he's said he plans to sell a little bit of everything eventually.

His main focus after sealing an arms deal with the Tir Tairngire government is to start his own brand of Desert Wars. Basicly he's designing exo-skeleton "mechs" and starting a league of "Mech" Fighting. (No none of us play battletech, lol.) Obviously they won't be as advanced as a battletech or mechwarrior mechs but would lean more towards the Exo-skeletons in Ghost in the Shell. (Runner Havens also mentions Ares testing exo-skeletons in Hong Kong.) His plan is to eventually have multiple arenas, one set in the jungle, one in space, one under the ocean, etc. Using capita from this he hopes to develop all his subsidiaries before executing his plan to gain AAA.

This post has been edited by Crimson: Aug 10 2010, 07:45 AM

[Inpu]

That means he is square in Ares' targeting reticles right out the door. They're not fans of Lonestar. He might find some assistance from opponents to Ares, but then they'd likely be interested in snatching such a contract up.

He put some thought into it, which is good. Depending on the route he takes for the exo-skeletons, Evo might take note as well. Pretty much all the corps like smashing each others unusual habitats.

[Voran]

A side note, in SR, it may be more profitable to just form your own gang (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) No silly paperwork.

[Smokeskin]

Anyone have any ideas on how I could knock their associations down a peg every now and then?

Competition. The world is full of people and corporations that want success, power and wealth. Is your PC and his associates the shrewdest, smartest, best connected, luckiest of them all? He isn't operationg in a vacuum, others will do to him too. Can he keep everyone in the corp motivated and driven, can he avoid inefficiency to creep in, internal conflicts and power struggles from causing problems? Can he recruit the best people, can he keep his best people from jumping ship to competitors - someone who does their job well might be offered a better position elsewhere, which in your PCs corp is filled by someone else. Can he fill the rank-and-file with people that will do their jobs at a reasonable wage so costs doesn't spiral out of control?

[CanRay]

Also, take into consideration Organized (Mobs) and Disorganized Crime (Government). They're also going to want a cut of a Corporation, and lacking AA-Status (Extraterritorial Corporation), they can't fight off city hall.

Also, what type of Corporation did he found? What's their product/service?

[Doc Chase]

Mind you, to get recognized by the Corporate Court (A-AA-AAA ratings), you need to be a multinational at least, have substantial assets and basically show that extraterritoriality is necessary for your corporation to do business. Minimum for extraterritoriality is AA rating. You'll also be under a lot of scruitiny from the megas, other small corps looking to become bigger fish and up their rating from A to AA, and governments looking for taxes, taxes, taxes.

[Stahlseele]

I had an idea for a completely Racisr Corp of my own once . . but the Corp. was supposed to be all Trolls and some Orks, maybe some Dwarves too ^^
One of the biggest Corps in the Books, i think Mitsuhama, was once the public face for the Yakuza or the Triads or someting like that.
So i figured: why not?
Small gang, made up of strong- and some con-men, get some turf, Connections to the Spike-Wheels and other such Gangs, start some business with drugs and weapon smuggling. Try and aquire a legal face.
Invest into and sponsor a Combat-Biker and/or Urban Brawl team made up of, you guessed it, members of the Gang basically.
You can now use this setup to launder money to your liking.
Use the facilities and the traveling to further spread drug and weapon smuggling. And then when they get known, have some of the other Gang members become their body guard staff. And Expand your business model into the guard business too.
Get some good troll and ork Combat medics for the Games in Combat Biking and Urban Brawl. Then Start up a combination of Guard and Medical business. Bingo, you are now doing your own little Doc Waggon/Crash-cart thing, with very Strong and Tough trained medical personal that can and will fight and kill anythging in it's way to the Client. And you have now more facilities to further get drugs and by now cyber and maybe Bioware too. You just need an legit face for it all.
And you can still use the facilites and equipment for drugs and weapon smuggling and you can treat your own wounded in the guarding business and in the sports teams. And you can hire your own men to guard your own facilites. Basically, you gather around the Trolls and Orks without SIN.
Big strong men who should be loyal to your cause. And once you get your business far enough up, you can issue your own SIN's. So now you're in the fake SIN-Business too. And from there on, you are pretty much open for anything else too, as long as you have the right SIN's around.
And who would want to mess with a gang made up of Trolls and Orks? Not many people.
See my Signature?
TROGCORP: JOIN US WHILE IT IS STILL VOLOUNTARY!

This is the small gist of it. i had a more complete writeup and business plan worked out and written up on the Shadowrun Online MMORPG Board, but i lost that when they got the Cease and Desist Order from Micro$ucks.

Want to take this further?
Start a corporate War. Probably against Crashcart first and maybe Doc-Waggon later on.
Get bigger. And then use some Ork/Troll Decker/Otaku/Technomancer/*shudders* Hackers to make it look as if two of the AAA corps started another corp war against other AAA corps and lay the Blame on Microdeck. Get rich with investing into ares and other such corporations beforehand.
Use this as the explanation for the step from SR3 to SR4, instead of the OMGWTF GERMANAZI TERRORISTS WITH MAGICAL WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION!

[Doc Chase]

So, just so I make sure I have this right...

You want to make a corporation of Goblinized, Azzie/MCT style. All right.

Then you want them to go legit. Okay.

Then you want them to go to war against CrashCart. An EVO subsidiary. What?

[Stahlseele]

*shrugs*
i don't know who crashcart belongs to.

[Doc Chase]

*shrugs*
i don't know who crashcart belongs to.

Evo. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I think Trogcorp would have problems from Alamos 20k and Humanis while trying to go legit, and it'd muck up a lot of the permits that the corp would be applying for.

[Stahlseele]

OK, so not Crashcart. They are just the smaller between them and DocWaggong and would have been the easier target to take out as competition.

Yah, but when you're fighting Humanis and Alamos 20k on a more or less regular basis, aren't you by default the People's Champion?
Also, There's O.R.C. and M.O.M. who could and maybe would support TrogCorp. too . . Maybe even Evo itself, seeing how we're basically their complete target demographic O.o
Yeah, the Permits would be a mayor Problem. But then, that's what Deckers and Dwarves are there for. To use as a public Face for such things.
Furthermore: Seeing how they start out as a group of Runners and Gangers, they would and could use the same not legal ways the other corps do to accomplish stuff.

[Johnny B. Good]

Honestly, Ares and Evo essentially have unlimited resources and have the sixth world's best and brightest in their R&D teams. They likely have a whole research team of people with 5 logic and 6 mechanics/armorer/software, who are all likely to have cerebral boosters as well assleep regulators (Making them able to work for 1.4 times as long), courtesy of the company. They also have bleeding edge supercomputers for number crunching, and probably a UV node for running simulations. They may even have an adept with Improved Ability (Mechanics), as well as various magic aides (Improve logic at a high force).

So unless you have a logic 6, Mechanics 7, Improved Ability: Mechanics 6, who also has a sleep regulator and cerebral boosters as well as a balls-high force increase logic spell cast on him working for you, you wouldn't even put a dent in Ares' bottom line. Hell, even if you did have the king of minmaxed mechanics working for you, Ares wouldn't likely even care that you exist, since they have a whole squad of uuber-mechanics working for them.

R&D is the hardest part of a business to break into, as it requires millions and/or billions of dollars of input, today. Let's not even talk about what kind of money it would be after 60 years of inflation.

[Stahlseele]

Hence, do service(maybe a bit of sales/reselling stuff), not R&D

[kzt]

Well at the moment the mage face has managed to get an arms manufacturing plant running in Shreveport, LA (The game started in our home town.) The plant was obtained when a local gang owed the team a favor and they orchestrated a hostile takeover of an illegal arms factory held by an opposing gang. After an invasion and alot of legal legwork he managed to get it authorized and established as a legal manufacturer, supplying arms to the local Lone Star. Also funneling a large majority into the black market with the help of fore mentioned gang. From this he plans to launch a mother company and then new subsidiaries. From what he's said he plans to sell a little bit of everything eventually.

Well, if you ignore they way the world actually works you can do all sorts of things, like have Damon Knight adopt you.

LS buys things like guns centrally. They buy them from large corps that supply all of the LS offices and divisions with the same guns. They have teams of people who work really hard to get the best possible prices. They have teams of people who evaluate guns to determine which ones to even look at. They also have lawyers who verify that their suppliers have all the licenses and permits needed to sell them stuff. They have people who purchase guns who have a long working relationship with the fairly small number of people that seriously try to sell them weapons.

People who want licenses to make things like machine guns get various LE types that crawl up their ass before the license gets granted. If the owner or key people have a criminal record or an ID that doesn't hold up under investigation (in other words, if they are not all people with legitimate SINs) things won't go so good. If the property was owned by a gang this will tend to run up red flags and lots of questions will be asked.

People who have made a good living selling guns to LS are going to be kind of irate to have someone kick over their feed bowl and are likely to do things about this. They will, among other things, go look for reasons to have people with badges and guns make their competitor a non-competitor. If that doesn't work it's possible that some sort of "terrible accident" might befall the owner, the employees, or the property.

[Stahlseele]

Make him open up a Music Lable, get Damon? Or Perianwyr? That one fun to hang around with music loving dragon to help him.

[Kruger]

He's developing exoskeletons? Holy crap. How many hundreds of millions is he making for the R&D on this?

But, like it was said, there are a pile of problems you can throw at him. Legitimacy is the first thing. Without a real identity to front the organization, he'll never be able to truly operate in legitimate markets. Second, his resources are going to be absurdly limited. Anything he can develop on a manufacturing side of business, the megacorps will already be able to do. And if by some chance he manages to accomplish something they can't...

Well, he'll get to experience happily and first hand the joys of the very corporate sabotage he used to partake in when shadowrunners are hitting his holdings on behalf of whomever he has irked.

The bottom line is he needs a lot of venture capital (almost impossible to get legitimately without a legitimate face and absurdly dangerous to get illegitimately from sources like organized crime, and even then, they aren't going to have the cash flow to invest in the kinds of things he's trying to build), skilled laborers (who again aren't going to want to work for cheap, and harder to get to work for an illegal employer, and whome are already probably working for another megacorp who won't be pleased if their employees start defecting), and security (from everyone else who wants to steal or ruin what you have).

The question isn't how you knock them down. It's how they convince you they haven't already been knocked down.

[Reg06]

Also, shadowrunners. Other corporations won't just buy out the PCs' companies and restrict their sales, they'll send in shadowrunners to take them out or damage their facilities.

[CanRay]

Also, shadowrunners. Other corporations won't just buy out the PCs' companies and restrict their sales, they'll send in shadowrunners to take them out or damage their facilities.

"OK, we have to pull a demolition's 'run against a small Corporation in order to get the rest of the payroll this month, and it is... Oh drek." "What?" "We gotta blow ourselves up."