Military rules? Options

[Smokeskin]

The song lyrics were ok, humorous, if off topic.. This bit is is against the TOS and very likely to derail a thread and get warnings bandied about.

Huh? The song is extremely political and I find it very distasteful. Both sides of the political spectrum should be equally policed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_(Edwin_Starr_song)
"War" is [...] a blatant anti-Vietnam War protest [...] depicting the general anger and distaste the antiwar movement felt

The only way I can see it being ok and humorous is if the people quoting the lyrics were being ironic, which is easy to miss for a non-native english speaker like me on a forum.

[Doc Chase]

Could say so much...Aaanyway.

The only (non mercenary) military units that really get any face time are the Azzies since the corporate and state are basically one and the same. Jaguar Guards get shifted to Aztlan units all the time, especially during the cock-up in the Yucatan. War! will likely touch on them and the Amazonian standing military (which is predominately Awakened, IIRC), but SR tends to be more about small scale engagements in the shadows, not necessarily dropping bombs on population centers.

As fun as that is.

[Mr. Mage]

The only way I can see it being ok and humorous is if the people quoting the lyrics were being ironic, which is easy to miss for a non-native english speaker like me on a forum.

Don't know about ironic... I was just going along because I thought it was a funny little Blurb...

SR may be mostly about small scale engagements, but I find it likely that some nations at least have a standing army. A small team can only do so much... However, recent developments in cyberwar seem to be bringing the trend away from killing the other guys army and more towards covert attacks on an enemy's technological infrastructure. So maybe by 2072, full size armies aren't as important.

Maybe large scale cyberwar will be a topic in War!? That would be pretty interesting to read...

[Voran]

What can you say? War. War never changes.

[MK Ultra]

From all the sorcebooks published so far, I think you will find the best intel on national militaries in Shadows of North America and maybe New Seattle+Seattle 2070. Generally you can assume that there are still mass-millitaries, thouch they 'may' be smaller then today and have a bit more drone support. Mages are very scarce as has been said before. Hackers are very important for communications and drone network security.

Special Forces may more often have cyberware, direct magical support and integrated hacker support (see Ghosts as an example in SR4 NPC section).

[Smokeskin]

SR may be mostly about small scale engagements, but I find it likely that some nations at least have a standing army. A small team can only do so much... However, recent developments in cyberwar seem to be bringing the trend away from killing the other guys army and more towards covert attacks on an enemy's technological infrastructure. So maybe by 2072, full size armies aren't as important.

But what if the enemy doesn't depend on technological infrastructure? Guerilla armies have no central infrastructure to pick apart, and the only counters are leaving, hearts and minds, or lots and lots of troops. In SR, with magical firepower and cyberware making individual operatives much more dangerous while remaining low profile, assymetric warfare could be even harder to handle.

Also, something like knocking out an enemy's comms would be very hard in SR, since he can rely on local wireless matrix or satellite uplinks.

[Sengir]

In SR, with magical firepower and cyberware making individual operatives much more dangerous while remaining low profile, assymetric warfare could be even harder to handle.

These changes also give an ambushed squad significantly more firepower than ever before, and allow a host of new counter-insurgency strategies. So the balance should not have changed much, both sides have learned new tricks.

[CanRay]

These changes also give an ambushed squad significantly more firepower than ever before, and allow a host of new counter-insurgency strategies. So the balance should not have changed much, both sides have learned new tricks.

The old ones still work, however. You can't get much lower-tech than IEDs. Or even UEDs (Unimprovised Explosive Devices.) with even limited training.

[Smokeskin]

These changes also give an ambushed squad significantly more firepower than ever before, and allow a host of new counter-insurgency strategies. So the balance should not have changed much, both sides have learned new tricks.

Yeah, it gives both sides more options.

When I think about, there's lots of paradigm shifts that happened. We can't predict the outcome or what strategies will emerge. Military history is full of examples how almost everyone gets new options wrong to begin with, then some general figures out a new way to do things and dominates until the others catch up - and warfare is different from them on.

[Sengir]

The old ones still work, however. You can't get much lower-tech than IEDs. Or even UEDs (Unimprovised Explosive Devices.) with even limited training.

But while these days the remains of an IED are at best useful for an educated guess which bomb workshop made it, in 2072 the charred remains of a detonator can be enough for precision delivery of an MOBA (massivley overcast bloodmage asskick) right to the maker's doorstep.

[MK Ultra]

Uhm, I don´t think you can use the remains of an IED as a ritual link to target a spell under the rules of any edition!

[CanRay]

Uhm, I don´t think you can use the remains of an IED as a ritual link to target a spell under the rules of any edition!

Yeah, an item has to be handled for quite a bit of time before any part of a person's aura rubs off on it enough to be used as a ritual link.

Now, get ahold of the Shadowrunner's C-N Jackrabbit or GMC Stepvan he's had since 2050...

[Sengir]

Psychometry metamagic + symbolic links. A street shaman won't get anywhere near the required hits, an almighty bloodmage cabal on the other hand...

[Tiralee]

The Aztechnology sourcebook had quite a bit on their military and how they differed from a few of the major players. From memory, it covered usual fit-out, armour and some tactics. Also mentioned their not-too-flexable doctorine (In this situation, do this. Follow orders, or else.) that could be taken advantage of if people know the Azzy SOP.

Most notable was their unusual use of frontline magic and magical shinys carried by troops. No, they're not going to waste their blood cabal on a patrol of grunts when some hick owl shaman would do fine, so you don't have to worry about your face melting like a nazi at an arc opening, but the troops would be likely (especially if they're above private) to have some single-use triggered barrier foci (bullets, grenades).
Also mentioned the extensive use of spirits as "tripwires" and emergency communications. Nothing like geeking a patrol then having four force 8 fire elementals want to "huggy-huggy" you and the grenades you're carrying.

Due to some savvy investments, they do have excellent air support and drones - air assets would usually be accompanied by an air spirit or two (combined arms?) but their navy was weak, especially considering the power of the Japanese/UCAS bluewater stuff.


Note: This is for the grunty types. For the Jaguar Guard and the other "orders" it's all heavy armour and betaware with stacked foci and AV rounds. And that's to go to the showers.



Some mention was made in FoF (God, that book had good colour and fluff.) and there was a lot of scattered stuff on Mercenary forces and how they worked.

From the general impressions, the UCAS has good mechanised, Excellent air assets, excellent deep-water and mild-poor magic. Also, good supplies of replacements, extra arms and new toys. And big guns. Also, their services haven't changed much (Army, Navy, Airforce, Marines), I think magic users are usually seconded to the respective intelligence apparatus, though. Matrix was passable.

CAS is...laughable. Ask anyone in San-Fran. Underequipped, undertrained and a bunch of hillbilly bandits with uniforms. Basically a 2nd world army. Old equipment. Minimal magic, minimal matrix

Tir has a lot of very well-integrated forces, but can't apply too much of it at once unless they've done a lot of recon and in-depth analysis - lots of pros and cons as they don't have that much in the way of grunts. Redding was the example that proved the rule, blitzing the non-intergrated forces with a combined attack that broke them and made the Tir a nation. Heavy empathis on special forces...and more than one or two groups of them. The Tir Ghosts, the Prince's Bodyguards, The House Guards, The Scribe's little wolfpack facists...it seems if anyone's got cred or pull, they've got a bunch of deltaware heavy's going to pick up the groceries. And all with magic/foci out the yin-yang.

Native Nations: Again, much like the Tir, stong emphasis on combined forces, excellent matrix security and strong magical traditions (Souix Wildcats, anyone?) They've also inherited some good fast ground assets and like to do ranging patrols. Expect heavy spirit use combined with sneak attacks and hit-run-fade. Expert scouts and a lot of places to disappear.

-That's off the top of my head.

Hope it helps,

-Tir.

[Critias]

What makes you say the Tir hasn't got much by way of grunts? They're a mandatory-service nation, with a steady supply of new recruits whenever folks come of age. I see them as a sort of Elven Israel; paranoid (arguably rightly so), surrounded by countries they don't particularly like, and with an illogically potent military for their land mass as a result.

[CanRay]

Underequipped, undertrained and a bunch of hillbilly bandits with uniforms.

So, basically what the Confederacy had in the US Civil War (Which was far less than civil if you ask me.). Of course, have you ever seen a country boy shoot? They're probably more accurate than their assault rifles.

[Voran]

I suppose the aggravating thing is that almost by default, every military engagement needs to have magical support, or they'll just get murdered. ....Unless the opposition is using large scale bioweapons.

I mean, a single elemental summoning shaman/mage could destroy every current military force known to man, if they existed in today's real setting.

[CanRay]

I suppose the aggravating thing is that almost by default, every military engagement needs to have magical support, or they'll just get murdered. ....Unless the opposition is using large scale bioweapons.

I mean, a single elemental summoning shaman/mage could destroy every current military force known to man, if they existed in today's real setting.

Hense the first rule of Shadowrun Combat: "Geek the mage first."

So, it's a new twist on an old game. That's always been the face of war. WWI developed Trench Combat into an artform due to Machine Guns. And WWII became much more mobile due to improvements in engine technology. Bolt-action rifles gave way to assault rifles. Small artillery made way for modern mortars. Hell, think about the difference the face of war was changed with the development of a portable RADIO! And now we have satalite feeds and UAVs!

The end result is the same: Boots on the ground, exchanging territory for blood. How that blood is shed changes, but the game remains the same.

[Voran]

Yknow, I'm also wondering if the next evolution in warfare in Shadowrun setting is the idea that since everyone is so intent on using mages and the like, they'll take a page from Chicago and start dropping FAB 3 bombs in support of mundane forces, along with sophisticated jammers with the end result being that warfare starts looking more like it did back in World War 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Sengir]

Of course, have you ever seen a country boy shoot? They're probably more accurate than their assault rifles.

Problem is that learning how to shoot is only a tiny subset of what it takes to be decent soldier. Even more so since the expected engagement no longer is "prone, supported, 200m" (aka. Russians on the North German Plains). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tiralee]

-I said the Tir had a small standing army, or at least I think I did:)

It's more about population and being able to bring force to bear. Yes, mandatory service...but knowing which end of the rifle is the one that is bad to look down doesn't mean people press a button on their desk and change into their armour revealed from behind the bookcase whenever evil threatens (I've played with people whose characters did this...)

Regarding CAS - that's pretty much what the book said. Antique equipment, training and motivation, minimal magic, laughable matrix and a few rusting air assets. It also was plain in hinting that their most modern weapons fell off the back of an Ares truck and more would follow if some grunts could keep an eye on certain properties.

But, back to armed forces composition.

Frankly, if you base it loosely on combined arms and along similar lines to todays' armies, you'd not be far off the canon. Remember to incorperate magic, matrix and Megacorperate influences, you'll be fine.

-Tir

[Saint Sithney]

But what if the enemy doesn't depend on technological infrastructure? Guerilla armies have no central infrastructure to pick apart, and the only counters are leaving, hearts and minds, or lots and lots of troops. In SR, with magical firepower and cyberware making individual operatives much more dangerous while remaining low profile, assymetric warfare could be even harder to handle.

Also, something like knocking out an enemy's comms would be very hard in SR, since he can rely on local wireless matrix or satellite uplinks.

Yep. The goal of any war is to eliminate your enemy's ability to make war.
As long as they still have a significant population willing to fight and die, then you have not accomplished your goal.

[Runner Smurf]

I'd say the goal of war is not to eliminate your opponent's ability to make war, but to eliminate their capacity to prevent you from achieving your objectives. That might be by eliminating their capacity to resist, eliminating their desire to resist, or eliminating them entirely.

As for what those objectives might be, to quote Clausewitz: "War is a continuation of politics by other means."

As for the 6th World, the rise of corporate powers equivalent, if not greater than, the nation state, and the creation of standing armies that are not tied to nation states...Clausewitz might need to be revised a bit. I suggest we rely on the Japanese maxim, "Business is war," to revise Clausewitz: "War is a continuation of business by other means."

[LivingOxymoron]

So, basically what the Confederacy had in the US Civil War (Which was far less than civil if you ask me.). Of course, have you ever seen a country boy shoot? They're probably more accurate than their assault rifles.

I think he meant CFS (California Free State) rather than CAS (Confederation of American States). My read on them has been that they have more men under arms, and with better training and doctrine, but lower in technology than the UCAS. They also have the world's largest sub fleet and a Navy suited mostly only to defensive military operations in the Gulf of Mexico.

In my game, the CAS has the Marine Corps, whereas the UCAS no longer does.

[suoq]

<- reanimate...

Tiny update on the existence of WAR from http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#!/shadowrun

Best part of doing the art notes for War? All the Amazon rainforest images I have to look at for reference!