[X] My Assistant

[yesferatu]

"Shapechange transforms a voluntary subject into a normal (non-paranormal) critter, though the subject retains human consciousness."- Awakened World SR4 211

It depends what you transform into.

If you transform into an elephant, you're not getting extra IP.
So transform into something faster and you will get the increase.

Why wouldn't you get 2 IP for turning into a cheetah?

[Mordinvan]

Can you show me where in the rules it allows you to do this? Everywhere else in the entire game that you get extra Initiative Passes it explicitly tells you you get them. Where in Shapechange does it tell you you get extra Initiative Passes?

Shapechange transforms a voluntary subject into a normal (non-paranormal)
critter

An exact cut and paste of the text on about page 210 of SR4A. You TRANSFORM into the animal. This is where the rules allow it. The rules says you become the animal, except for the noted changes, since IP is not among the noted changes you go with those of the base animal. I would like you to tell me exactly what "transforms a voluntary subject into a normal (non-paranormal) critter" means if not that?

[Neraph]

"Shapechange transforms a voluntary subject into a normal (non-paranormal) critter, though the subject retains human consciousness."- Awakened World SR4 211

It depends what you transform into.

If you transform into an elephant, you're not getting extra IP.
So transform into something faster and you will get the increase.

Why wouldn't you get 2 IP for turning into a cheetah?

Can you show me where it tells you you gain the extra Initiative Pass? All you're showing me is a starting sentence before it actually tells you what you gain at all. I can only find hard rules that tell me I use other Physical Attributes, increase them by the spell's Successes, and the FAQ mentions you gain the Powers of the critter. Nothing whatsoever except a shaky sentence that does not even mention Special Attributes or Initiative Passes.

[Neraph]

An exact cut and paste of the text on about page 210 of SR4A. You TRANSFORM into the animal. This is where the rules allow it. The rules says you become the animal, except for the noted changes, since IP is not among the noted changes you go with those of the base animal. I would like you to tell me exactly what "transforms a voluntary subject into a normal (non-paranormal) critter" means if not that?

That's called a Topic Sentence.

Here's the important thing:

Consult the Critters section, p. 285, for the subject's Physical attributes while in critter form.

That's all the actual spell tells you you get.

[Mordinvan]

That's all the actual spell tells you you get.

Actually that just tells you where to find your new attributes. It doesn't say this is 'all' you get. If this what you think, every time you use the spell you turn into a blind, deaf, clawless, fangless version of the animal, as it doesn't expressly say you gain the senses, or any of the creatures natural weapons.
Besides, the number of IP the creature has is CLEARLY listed in the creature's stat block.

[yesferatu]

Grr...now I'm actually on the fence.

When transformed, you get:
4 physical stats, which change
4 mental starts, which stay the same
Up to 5 "special stats":
Edge
Essence
Initiative
Magic
Resonance

On the one hand, I believe you "transform" in to the creature, so you'd get claws, wings, poison or whatever.
A cheetah is fast, speed is as much a part of their physiology as their claws.

On the other hand, I wouldn't expect to gain the critter's edge, essence or magic, why should I get their initiative passes?
yes, initiative is a derived stat, but initiative passes are not.

Grumble grumble.

[Mordinvan]

On the other hand, I wouldn't expect to gain the critter's edge, essence or magic, why should I get their initiative passes?
yes, initiative is a derived stat, but initiative passes are not.

Grumble grumble.

Because a) Its part of the creatures stat block, which is what you gain
Because b) you gain the creatures spine and peripheral nervous system, which contribute to initiative passes if bioware has anything to say about it.

[Neraph]

Actually that just tells you where to find your new attributes. It doesn't say this is 'all' you get. If this what you think, every time you use the spell you turn into a blind, deaf, clawless, fangless version of the animal, as it doesn't expressly say you gain the senses, or any of the creatures natural weapons.
Besides, the number of IP the creature has is CLEARLY listed in the creature's stat block.

Yes, but you're only supposed to reference the stat block for Physical Attributes, not Special Attributes, in which section the Initiative Passes are located.

[Sesix]

Hes just being short sighted, and not willing to conform. Please stop feeding him. He wont get it. Doesn't want to get it.

I will agree its a gray area....but the Transforms into the animal part of the spell does hint that you would get it. It just goes to common sense.

[yesferatu]

Actually...your initiative score is determined by Reaction and Intuition, both mental stats which don't change upon transformation.
So....when you're in cheetah form, you're still working off your own base initiative score.

[Sesix]

Actually...your initiative score is determined by Reaction and Intuition, both mental stats which don't change upon transformation.
So....when you're in cheetah form, you're still working off your own base initiative score.

Actually Reaction is a physical attribute. Pg 70 of SR4a

[Mordinvan]

Hes just being short sighted, and not willing to conform. Please stop feeding him. He wont get it. Doesn't want to get it.

I will agree its a gray area....but the Transforms into the animal part of the spell does hint that you would get it. It just goes to common sense.

Ya, I guess you're right, if they want to cripple their spells, I'll let them.

[Neraph]

Hes just being short sighted, and not willing to conform. Please stop feeding him. He wont get it. Doesn't want to get it.

I will agree its a gray area....but the Transforms into the animal part of the spell does hint that you would get it. It just goes to common sense.

I'm sorry, but when I play a game of rules I like to follow said rules. When you are claiming that a topic sentence of a paragraph that's giving a brief explanation about the visual effect of a spell. The paragraph then goes on later to describe, in game terms, exactly what the "transforms into" part entails: gaining the Physical Attributes of the chosen critter.

EDIT:

Ya, I guess you're right, if they want to cripple their spells, I'll let them.

Woah woah woah. Going from 1s and 2s in physical attributes to the 10+s is hardly crippling a spell. Not gaining one extra IP when a spell in no way confers or implies it is not crippling.

[Sesix]

*Takes spoon away* No, Higgens. You had yours.

[yesferatu]

Oh derp.
Sorry, Sesix.
You're right.

Well, your intuition still determines half of your initiative.
So it's not like you completely take the animal's initiative score.

[Lansdren]

all I will add right now is the powers were a grey area until the faq. I think the IP's will be the same until a revised faq or a dev answer. we can go round in circles but its going to come down to opinion not facts

you cant claim your right and the rule means X and thats the only answer if other people have equally valid answers and no dev has put in their two penneth.

[Neraph]

Consult the Critters section, p. 285, for the subject's Physical attributes while in critter form.

What part of that also says "also get an extra Initiative Pass when the animal has another Initiative Pass"? It clearly and definitavely only allows the use of the critter's stat block for reference to Physical Attributes. Initiative Passes are not Physical Attributes.

[yesferatu]

Is it possible that I think Neraph is right, but I disagree with him in spirit?
Again, I wouldn't expect to get 4 edge for turning into a great cat, how is edge different from extra IP?

[Mordinvan]

Is it possible that I think Neraph is right, but I disagree with him in spirit?
Again, I wouldn't expect to get 4 edge for turning into a great cat, how is edge different from extra IP?

Because the extra IP come from getting a new spine and set of nerves, the edge of 4 comes from.... I have no idea.

[Doc Chase]

Because the extra IP come from getting a new spine and set of nerves, the edge of 4 comes from.... I have no idea.

Improved diet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

But hey, if the Init Passes thing is such a pain, then just do the corresponding sustained spell before shapechanging, then you have a Dire Bear with 4 init passes. Go crazy.

[yesferatu]

Keep in mind shapechange may not be as cool as people think:
1. It limits attacks to melee, which we have determined are inferior to firearms.
2. It does not allow you to wear armor.

So...yeah...a 12/12/12/12 bear *seems* badass, but in reality you get 1 attack a round and you take almost full damage from guns.
A mage transforming into a critter is really just asking to be shot.

[sabs]

In the immortal words of my favorite Matrix Character.

"Dodge This"

[Mordinvan]

Keep in mind shapechange may not be as cool as people think:
1. It limits attacks to melee, which we have determined are inferior to firearms.
2. It does not allow you to wear armor.

So...yeah...a 12/12/12/12 bear *seems* badass, but in reality you get 1 attack a round and you take almost full damage from guns.
A mage transforming into a critter is really just asking to be shot.

Ya, but then you just need to get yourself possessed by a force 6 spirit and call it a day.

[Mordinvan]

In the immortal words of my favorite Matrix Character.

"Dodge This"

With a reaction of 12, its actually easier then one might think.

[Neraph]

Because the extra IP come from getting a new spine and set of nerves, the edge of 4 comes from.... I have no idea.

No it doesn't. (Lap 12) The spell only refers you to the stat block for Physical Attributes. The rest of the animal does not exist for your purposes. You only look at the Physical Stats.

The FAQ then goes on to say that you look at the Powers section. This is still not the Special Attributes section.