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Prime Mover
post Aug 12 2010, 01:10 PM
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"Shadowrun4.com forums will be live by end of this month."
Posted on Catalyst Twitter.
Any more info out there?
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Lansdren
post Aug 12 2010, 01:28 PM
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call me paranoid but could this be a attempt to police the discussions considering the amount of mud slinging (Justified or otherwise) here and keep out people they dont like who dont tow the company line.

Not that I'm paranoid or anything



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Prime Mover
post Aug 12 2010, 01:33 PM
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My concern was with official forums Dumpshock would see less developer input and replies posted here.
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Lansdren
post Aug 12 2010, 01:44 PM
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QUOTE (Prime Mover @ Aug 12 2010, 02:33 PM) *
My concern was with official forums Dumpshock would see less developer input and replies posted here.



It feels like that has gone downhill recently since the issues that have been floating around already.
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Grymjack
post Aug 12 2010, 02:24 PM
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what issues?

<------------------me noobie
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Lansdren
post Aug 12 2010, 03:07 PM
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QUOTE (Grymjack @ Aug 12 2010, 03:24 PM) *
what issues?

<------------------me noobie



Not wanting to go over everything or really open the door to it as it got quite vicious, there was some incidents involving how the company behaved and treated its employees leading to a number of the writters for the current edition leaving and pulling copyright in some instances. The fallout from all of this was ten main threads (you can find them if you search) which go on and on and on about who did what and various bits of banter. Much venom was spread from both sides for good and bad.

Given the amount of bad feeling and possibly bad blood on what was the Unofficial forums (listed on the official site as such but quoted as doing such a good job they didnt need official forums) I can see why they might want to have somewhere to keep the spin positive (something very hard to do when your talking about a game where paranoid is a way of life and we are all cynical bastards).

I have tried to keep the summary as vague as possible so as to not give anyone a chance to start a flame war in this thread about stuff in another thread in the hope that this will stay civil.

From my long time as a lurker before I made the jump into posting and up to recently it was always really good to see the developers come on and kick about stuff but it looks like those times might be at a end and a new sterile Corp friendly place might be where they go.

I must admit though if they were to refrain posting here officially and keep it in a site they could control I would lose respect for them in some ways.
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Mr. Mage
post Aug 12 2010, 03:15 PM
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I make no claim to knowledge of how Dumpshock will fare after SR4 official forums open up, but I can say that I will probably continue here for a while more. There may be some particularly unsavory instances of conflict, as you mentioned, but we still have a lot of good people who are more than willing to help out and do so in a civil manner.

The only advantage I can see to an official SR4 forum is that it will probably have actual game designers from Catalyst answering some of the questions, but unless I'm mistaken we have some members like that here on Dumpshock... so I guess that makes it kind of a moot point...

Whatever happens will happen...
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Synner667
post Aug 12 2010, 03:17 PM
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I'm curious why the want to start afresh, rather than buying up Dumpshock and changing it…
…It takes little to set up a forum and they've had years to do it if that was their concern, they already have thousands of visitors, Dumpshock is (rightly or wrongly) seen as the official forums…
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CanRay
post Aug 12 2010, 03:49 PM
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QUOTE (Synner667 @ Aug 12 2010, 10:17 AM) *
I'm curious why the want to start afresh, rather than buying up Dumpshock and changing itů

That implies that the Dumpshock is for sale.

I'm not involved with it, so I don't know if it is or not, but I'm just saying...
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otakusensei
post Aug 12 2010, 03:55 PM
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Dumpshock will be fine. If we've learned anything from this experience it's that the current devs don't have anything of value to say.
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deek
post Aug 12 2010, 04:00 PM
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Like any forum, its worth is measured by content and contributors. At this point and the near future, the sheer volume of information held within the Dumpshock forums is a high threshold to surpass. I don't see any "official" forums taking over until they can offer something better than here.

Now if developers interact a lot more on the new forums, then that is something. I could see maybe with a 5th edition re-write the official forums could overtake Dumpshock, but that's assuming there is a lot of solid content.

I'm doubtful that it will amount to anything, but hopeful to the possibility of having active developers participate regularly on game-related topics.
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tete
post Aug 12 2010, 04:01 PM
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QUOTE (otakusensei @ Aug 12 2010, 03:55 PM) *
Dumpshock will be fine. If we've learned anything from this experience it's that the current devs don't have anything of value to say.


Thats a little harsh, Jason has tried regardless of how much verbal lashing he has gotten and having his hands tied by NDA and being an employee.
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X-Kalibur
post Aug 12 2010, 04:02 PM
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Official forums tend to be overseen with a very heavy hand and a censorship of whatever they please. I'll stick to Dumpshock.
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BlueMax
post Aug 12 2010, 04:06 PM
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QUOTE (Prime Mover @ Aug 12 2010, 05:33 AM) *
My concern was with official forums Dumpshock would see less developer input and replies posted here.

I DO NOT WORK FOR CATALYST

But I am a Battletech fan. Your concern is valid but somewhat alarmist. Shadowrun could benefit from clarity of message and organized forums. The Shadowrun community will still benefit from Dumpshock. Battletech has dozens of active fan boards. Perhaps hundreds..

Validity/Sadness
What happens on the Btech forums... all too often

Awesomeness
Errata section, an example of the benefits of order

Another benefit is that they have clear avatars for who does what. I wonder what Jason's Avatar will look like...

BlueMax
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ravensmuse
post Aug 12 2010, 04:08 PM
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I hate to say it, but if you're not paranoid and you're not floating fifty million conspiracy theories about the whole situation, then WTF are you doing playing Shadowrun?

Let's be honest: Dumpshock is anathema to the current developers and writers. A small scale forum rebellion kind of does that, y'know? Someone in one of the CGL threads started a theory that currently floats to the top for me: they want a community much closer to the Battletech forums, where it's completely, totally controlled by them, moderation is heavy, and they can selectively edit what they want people to see and hear.

This being Shadowrun, I don't see that working very well for them for very long.

On the other hand, will new membership to Dumpshock falter? Probably. Being the "official" forums will bring in the newbies, and they'll be indoctrinated in their society along with whomever from here decides to take off, and DS will become a sort of boogeymen lair - Dragonsfoot to the WotC forums, for example. Which is probably fine; DS will end up crusty and lovable, and the newbie forums will be shiny and new and "happy".

But we'll see. I still don't hold much stock in Catalyst sticking around much longer, hence me not hanging around here as often as I used to. I'm really disappointed in how the situation ended up, and it's caused me to drift a little away from Shadowrun. I advocate for it still, and recently introduced a new gaming friend to Cthulhutech (at a horse show, no less!), but I'm also quick to point out all of the flaws, mistakes, errors, and outright stupidity that's come out of Catalyst through this whole situation.

So if the "official" presence is gone, and frees up the environment to allow some of the old timers to feel comfortable coming back (like, I don't see Caine or Ancient posting as much as they used to, which is sad but I could completely be missing their posts) then I'm cool with that - I'll likely come back out of lurker mode too.

Plus ca change, and all of that.
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Caine Hazen
post Aug 12 2010, 04:08 PM
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Yeah, DS is not for sale. Us Mods are pretty much a community of people who hate each other until we get drunk enough to love each other (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) You'd be required to buy us much more alcohol than you think to get us to discuss a price on selling this beautiful mess we have here.
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CanRay
post Aug 12 2010, 04:10 PM
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Shiny and happy have no place in Cyberpunk.

Post-Cyberpunk, on the other hand. No, wait, that's only shiny. And not the Joss Whedon "Shiny", either.
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ravensmuse
post Aug 12 2010, 04:11 PM
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Can, no. Please. Edit that shit. We don't need the genre definition war ag-OH CHRIST HERE THEY COME.
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lehesu
post Aug 12 2010, 04:24 PM
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QUOTE (ravensmuse @ Aug 12 2010, 11:08 AM) *
I hate to say it, but if you're not paranoid and you're not floating fifty million conspiracy theories about the whole situation, then WTF are you doing playing Shadowrun?

Let's be honest: Dumpshock is anathema to the current developers and writers. A small scale forum rebellion kind of does that, y'know? Someone in one of the CGL threads started a theory that currently floats to the top for me: they want a community much closer to the Battletech forums, where it's completely, totally controlled by them, moderation is heavy, and they can selectively edit what they want people to see and hear.

First, I certainly hope that anyone playing a roleplaying game is capable of dividing their real-life personalities from that of the game.

Second, anyone that thinks the Battletech forums are a sterile, completely lifeless construct that stifles debate either doesn't play Battletech or hasn't been to the site regularly. They certainly clamped down on the recent controversy, which upset me even though it was completely understandable. However, the amount of interaction between the fans and the devs, playtesters, and freelancers is immense. The amount of interaction was such that Herb had to reign in some of the more official CGL guys because they were being too casual with new members.
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Yerameyahu
post Aug 12 2010, 04:29 PM
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Why wouldn't they want their own official forums? Everyone else has them. Nothing sinister about that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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ravensmuse
post Aug 12 2010, 04:33 PM
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QUOTE (lehesu @ Aug 12 2010, 11:24 AM) *
First, I certainly hope that anyone playing a roleplaying game is capable of dividing their real-life personalities from that of the game.

I mean obviously; I'm not posting this from some secret, boarded up location (my mom's basement) with my helm of non-mind control on (collander with cardboard and tinfoil lining). All I'm saying is that Shadowrun appeals to a certain brand of folk, and it does promote healthy paranoia.

Plus, y'know, joke.

QUOTE
Second, anyone that thinks the Battletech forums are a sterile, completely lifeless construct that stifles debate either doesn't play Battletech or hasn't been to the site regularly. They certainly clamped down on the recent controversy, which upset me even though it was completely understandable. However, the amount of interaction between the fans and the devs, playtesters, and freelancers is immense. The amount of interaction was such that Herb had to reign in some of the more official CGL guys because they were being too casual with new members.

I never said they were sterile, completely lifeless or whatever. I mean, hell, I lurk the WotC forums sometimes, and even they're not that bad.

But I'll repeat what I said:

QUOTE (me!)
...they want a community much closer to the Battletech forums, where it's completely, totally controlled by them, moderation is heavy, and they can selectively edit what they want people to see and hear.

You even admitted it yourself: they clamped down on the recent controversy on the official Battletech boards. Don't you think that they'd have liked to have that happen here, instead of everyone and their dog calling them on what was going down?

Hell, this would have rated less than a blip if all of this had come down on an official forum. It would have been dismissed as more of Frank's rantings, and everyone would have had a good laugh and it all would have been swept under the rug. But instead, since Dumpshock is seen as the unofficial official forums which aren't controlled by CGL, all interested parties got to speak - and boy did we have some interesting tales come out.

I'll take the freedom of information over pat, corporate "everything is cool guys, really!" noise any day.
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Yerameyahu
post Aug 12 2010, 04:38 PM
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*shrug*. It seems totally standard to have official forums, with all the normal associated controls, and independent forums, with their own individual rules. People know exactly what they're getting into. It's not about paranoia. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It's weird for any company with a user base *not* to have an official forum, whether it's for a game, tech support, whatever.
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LurkerOutThere
post Aug 12 2010, 04:38 PM
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Paranoia, arrogance, sniping, yep another day on dumpshock.

The battletech forums are "official", from what I've seen the developers stop by at least occasionally and answer questions. When the developers do the same here they get attacked, sometimes personally, sometimes just by people who disagree with them on how the storyline is going. Some people chose to use this site as a vehicle to air employment greivances or storyline choice differences. At least one of those people swore he'd sell all his shadowrun books and never look back, he wasn't forced out by anyone the company didn't fold like he expected it to.

On the other hand you have people that continually claim that SR isn't paid the same attention by the company management as Btech is, yet kick and scream every time something like this occurs. You have Cain, who I single out because someone brought him up by name, who complained that SR wasn't as heavily supported by CGL as Btech at Gencon yet he himself A) Had not volunteered to GM B) Had no ideas of the actual fundamental differences between the way events for the two lines run and are scheduled C) Refused to be bothered with a retraction or apology when multiple people on all sides chimed in to point out how factually innacurate his statements were.

So yea what I'm saying is while I like dumpshock I can see why CGL might want to start something in house. The people that hate the company already will of course see it as a pre-emptive strike against them, but their already delusional about their own scope in things.



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lehesu
post Aug 12 2010, 04:44 PM
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There is argument on the CBT boards. Heck, a significant number of people didn't like the way the moderators situation was handled recently. What you get over there, that you might not get over here, is that devs and freelancers may feel more comfortable interacting with the fans in a venue where they won't get ripped apart due to misplaced rage. A lot of CGL's employees do not need to interact with the public to do their job. They certainly won't do so if they are going to get crucified when they show their pretty little heads.

Dumpshock does a pretty good job (imho) of moderating discussions. But things tend to spiral out of control into intense vitriol, a product of undiluted free flow of information. At a certain point, a human being just doesn't feel like dealing with it. I will certainly accept a certain amount of oversight if it encourages interaction between the fans and devs and helps the community.

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ravensmuse
post Aug 12 2010, 04:51 PM
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Well, I mean, it's a question of just that: are you willing to trade some of your freedoms for a little bit of sanity. Some people may want to, others don't. I don't.

I walk away from Dumpshock all of the time - notice how low my postcount is, compared to how long I've been on these boards (which is actually longer than it looks, because for some reason, Dumpshock never sent me a confirmation email, and then all of a sudden a year after I'd signed up for the board, whoop! there I was!) - so I won't deny that there isn't vitriol and rage on here.

The mods do a good job on here, and that's not me backpatting. And if you think it's bad nowadays, I mean, it's been worse. Dumpshock is a rough and tumble place, and occasionally, you need to walk away.

On the other hand, it's a very creative and open place, and several fans have gone on to become authors and line developers through the work they did on this board. There's still an active presence for tinkering and creativity as well (as well as some completely anal micromanaging; damn folks). There's been good developer / author / fan discussions, and most of them go usually well.

The trick of the matter is, as I've pointed out before, here, CGL doesn't get to make the rules. And that's a good thing, because it allowed us to see what CGL had going on behind the scenes, in a high profile enough space that relevant and motivated people could see it and pass judgement. We found out why Ancient wasn't writing any more and why Jennifer and Adam left. We know what's going on with Synner, and why Wildfire and Transhuman walked. More importantly, we also know the current status of the on-going court cases and the status of the two licenses.

These are not bad things, and Dumpshock is big enough that enough people get that information out there. Not A Bad Thing.

Do I understand why CGL would want to make their own forum? Yeah. They get to make the rules. They get to control discussion. Sounds like a bad thing, the way I'm talking about it, but it's what all companies do, regardless of how "friendly" they seem on the surface. I like the Wizards boards well enough, but it's too sanitized there for my tastes. And frankly, I know that the reason is probably that they probably would rather have an official company board to talk to fans on. That's cool, and that's in their rights. A nice side-benefit is that they get away from Dumpshock, which at the moment isn't the friendliest environment towards them.

Again: that's their call, and they are welcome to it.

But my preference for Shadowrun discussion will remain Dumpshock. I'll probably lurk the official boards but talk here. No skin off of my nose, and like I said, if losing the "official unofficial" status makes certain people want to come back to the board - and hell, I'll even say this, welcome Frank back - then that will make me happy.

CGL showed their colors over the summer, and it makes me less inclined to be involved with them in an official capacity. I won't buy their products and I probably won't hang out in their clubhouse. My call.
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