SR4 "Official Forums" Options

[ravensmuse]

...

Really quick now, I'm gonna tackle a few things that I can't believe you're still banging a drum for post-CGL threads....

When the developers do the same here they get attacked, sometimes personally, sometimes just by people who disagree with them on how the storyline is going.

Does it get vitriolic sometimes? Yes. Do people go overboard? Yes. But you've also had people like Synner and Ancient and Patrick and Jen and basically, a lot of the writers and developers who would take the time to explain everything to the smallest degree possible, on their own, unpaid time. They have been far more patient than current management seems to want to be.

Some people chose to use this site as a vehicle to air employment greivances or storyline choice differences. At least one of those people swore he'd sell all his shadowrun books and never look back, he wasn't forced out by anyone the company didn't fold like he expected it to.

I can think of a few people you're talking about here, and you're being condescending and judgmental.

One of them was kicked out after making an off-hand comment to a fellow writer in private, warning them of a pattern he'd seen before.

Another left because of creative differences - he saw the line going one way, and the line went the other.

Many others complained about non-payment and rightfully took the work that they hadn't been paid for and walked. Which is in their right.

Others left because they'd been asked to break federal law.

On the other hand you have people that continually claim that SR isn't paid the same attention by the company management as Btech is, yet kick and scream every time something like this occurs.

I used to have Catalyst on my twitter. You know what I saw every time there was an update? "Woot! New Battletech stuff! You guys are going to love this!" Meanwhile, in Shadowrun-land, you still have, "nah, we won't give you a date on that yet. We don't want to get your hopes up in case something happens." I mean, as a fan, seeing that kind of irks me. (Usually it was the same person too - or that person using it as his own personal twitter).

I've also spoken in person to a person who's done freelance work for Catalyst, and he's said essentially the same thing - Battletech gets more love. One of the freelancers (maybe more? Can't remember) has said the same.

After awhile, a pattern begins to emerge...

You have Cain, who I single out because someone brought him up by name, who complained that SR wasn't as heavily supported by CGL as Btech at Gencon yet he himself A) Had not volunteered to GM B) Had no ideas of the actual fundamental differences between the way events for the two lines run and are scheduled C) Refused to be bothered with a retraction or apology when multiple people on all sides chimed in to point out how factually innacurate his statements were.

I'll support Caine for the simple reason that Caine is passionate about Shadowrun and getting what's best for Shadowrun. Is he abrasive? Yes. Is he a little too devoted? Yes. Does he have Shadowrun's best intentions at heart? I'd be willing to say yes. And he has lead to changes being made in the Shadowrun rules (and led indirectly to PACKs, IIRC).

He's also a father, possibly single (anyone want to back me up on this?) and might not have had the money or time to run events. I know he's done them before at Gencon, and volunteered.

So yea what I'm saying is while I like dumpshock I can see why CGL might want to start something in house. The people that hate the company already will of course see it as a pre-emptive strike against them, but their already delusional about their own scope in things.

And this is where you lost credibility.

[suoq]

Hey, if we can't get working errata, I'll take a forum. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[LurkerOutThere]

Fortunately you are not the be all end all gauge of credibilit., All you have to your name is a reasonably old start date and your pride at your low post count. Neither number provides validity one way or another.

I think we got well beyond the point of vitrolic at several points recently and even if it was only vitrolic, for exactly that reason I can see CGL wanting to start their own area. Further you put forth Patrick who was attacked as a company sell out even though he was one of those withholding copyrights. We have a situation where Jason and others are regularly attacked when they post here by Otakusensei and others and yet you seem perplexed when they don't want to come around here anymore and want to start their own thing.

My point remains, CGL is often chastised for not showing SR enough love yet one step to offer more legitimacy is challenged. You want to have it both ways.

[Yerameyahu]

Play nice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Personally, I never even noticed who the publishers were until I started reading all the kerfuffle about Catalyst here. Shadowrun is Shadowrun, to me, so I don't care about the drama.

[Inpu]

Play nice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Personally, I never even noticed who the publishers were until I started reading all the kerfuffle about Catalyst here. Shadowrun is Shadowrun, to me, so I don't care about the drama.

Amen to that. It is nice to be able to speak with those people, and I am very grateful for their works (I read the Ancient Files site in depth when I was researching the metaplot and world), but I don't really care one way or the other for the drama.

If they want an official forum, great. This one will still have a devoted following and you'd potentially get a new and interesting crowd over there as well. I'd be all too happy to have a foot in each.

[CorvusVlos]

call me paranoid but could this be a attempt to police the discussions considering the amount of mud slinging (Justified or otherwise) here and keep out people they dont like who dont tow the company line.

Not that I'm paranoid or anything

Spoken like a true runner.

[otakusensei]

Fortunately you are not the be all end all gauge of credibilit., All you have to your name is a reasonably old start date and your pride at your low post count. Neither number provides validity one way or another.

I think we got well beyond the point of vitrolic at several points recently and even if it was only vitrolic, for exactly that reason I can see CGL wanting to start their own area. Further you put forth Patrick who was attacked as a company sell out even though he was one of those withholding copyrights. We have a situation where Jason and others are regularly attacked when they post here by Otakusensei and others and yet you seem perplexed when they don't want to come around here anymore and want to start their own thing.

My point remains, CGL is often chastised for not showing SR enough love yet one step to offer more legitimacy is challenged. You want to have it both ways.

Thanks for the mention, Lurkster, I love you too.

Jason is a big boy, and he and I disagree with each other. I think he lacks the chops to be line developer on a game like Shadowrun and I question his vision and loyalties. He disagreed with me and we discussed things privately. I still disagree with him, vocally; but I cred him with not only articulating his position to me and others personally, but then having the sense to buckle under and work when it was clear he wasn't fighting back the sea.

And speaking of credibility, I think you lost yours a while back. I never had any to begin with, so I got lucky there.

[Blastula]

Don't worry. Be happy. CGL making "official" boards won't be the end of dumpshock. Just ask anyone who plays any SOE games. There are always the squeaky clean company boards and then there are the unofficial boards. Both get a lot of action, but the company boards are really mostly good for getting updates on releases and patch info.

[Darkeus]

Play nice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Personally, I never even noticed who the publishers were until I started reading all the kerfuffle about Catalyst here. Shadowrun is Shadowrun, to me, so I don't care about the drama.

My god, I couldn't have said it better. Shadowrun is bigger than the drama and bullshit.

[Grinder]

Fortunately you are not the be all end all gauge of credibilit., All you have to your name is a reasonably old start date and your pride at your low post count. Neither number provides validity one way or another.

I think we got well beyond the point of vitrolic at several points recently and even if it was only vitrolic, for exactly that reason I can see CGL wanting to start their own area. Further you put forth Patrick who was attacked as a company sell out even though he was one of those withholding copyrights. We have a situation where Jason and others are regularly attacked when they post here by Otakusensei and others and yet you seem perplexed when they don't want to come around here anymore and want to start their own thing.

Thanks for the mention, Lurkster, I love you too.
[...]And speaking of credibility, I think you lost yours a while back. I never had any to begin with, so I got lucky there.

Careful, guys. Keep this civil and try not get overly personal.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/extinguish.gif)

[Red_Cap]

I'll stick to Dumpshock. I avoid the CBT boards with the exception of the FGC, where we're allowed to put our own spin on the game; the rest of it gets moderated too heavily-handed and I expect official SR boards to end up the same way. I'm just glad that CGL isn't as fascist with its IP as, say, Games Workshop is; I'm active on Bolter & Chainsword and (formerly) Warseer, and you have to watch out when quoting rules or stats. . . but with their own forums coming up, CGL *could* pull some snarky shit like that.

So as long as the game line continues, I will continue to support the game and its universe.

[Acme]

Just reading the comments on this thread I can see why CGL might consider their own forums. Hell, I know that if I ever got accepted as a freelancer I wouldn't reveal that here for fear of getting jumped....

[CanRay]

Just reading the comments on this thread I can see why CGL might consider their own forums. Hell, I know that if I ever got accepted as a freelancer I wouldn't reveal that here for fear of getting jumped....

I would. I might be jumped, but I would.

[Stahlseele]

Wonder how many of us dumpshockers (why does that sound so much like dumb fuckers? x.x) are gonna go there anyway . .

[Demonseed Elite]

Pfft. When did it become fashionable for freelancers, writers, and developers to be spineless wimps? I've been posting on Dumpshock for years as a freelancer (now a retired freelancer). Before Dumpshock, I came from Shadowland.org, the site that once upon a time Dumpshock railed against as being full of rude pricks! *grins* Yeah, sometimes some threads get a little ridiculous, but if that happens, I just back off of that thread. I've always welcomed conversation between the fans, writers, and developers. Even...*gasp*...casual conversation! Maybe even an argument or two! The horror, I know.

Look, I've got a day job for the straight-laced, corporate lifestyle. I don't need that to invade my hobby writing too. No one from FASA, FanPro, or Catalyst ever paid me to visit Dumpshock and post, I did it because I enjoy it. It's a bit insulting to think that a writer would be scared of you all. I mean, if we didn't appreciate the fans, why would we be writing for Shadowrun? It's not the paycheck!

[Stahlseele]

It's not the paycheck!

*bites tongue*
And no, you don't need to be afraid of us . . even with all of our bitching and moaning and whining about life, the universe and everything, we usually don't attack the writers after all . .
Not even for stuff like the accidental ghoulacalypse ^^

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I mean, if we didn't appreciate the fans, why would we be writing for Shadowrun? It's not the paycheck!

Because of the girls, the fame, the cars? Oh, wait, that's a different job (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[CanRay]

For the fans, for the work itself, for yourself...

[Demonseed Elite]

For the fans, for the work itself, for yourself...

Exactly. When all is said and done, I'm pretty proud of the material I wrote, and for that reason, nothing posted here on Dumpshock is ever going to bother me much. And because I enjoyed writing the material and love the process of writing, I like to hear what people have to say about it. Even the critical things. Maybe some of those critics are just jerks, but some of them may have a point. And that point might help me become a better writer.

I'm not knocking official forums because there are perfectly good forums that happen to be official. I just don't like this idea that writers and developers need someone to police their interaction with the fans. If you're a writer or developer and you can't get anything of value out of interacting with the fans, you don't really need to post to any forums, official or otherwise. And if a publisher needs to be concerned about their writers speaking out of turn, there's probably some other issue that should be worked out.

[Acme]

Pfft. When did it become fashionable for freelancers, writers, and developers to be spineless wimps? I've been posting on Dumpshock for years as a freelancer (now a retired freelancer). Before Dumpshock, I came from Shadowland.org, the site that once upon a time Dumpshock railed against as being full of rude pricks! *grins* Yeah, sometimes some threads get a little ridiculous, but if that happens, I just back off of that thread. I've always welcomed conversation between the fans, writers, and developers. Even...*gasp*...casual conversation! Maybe even an argument or two! The horror, I know.

Look, I've got a day job for the straight-laced, corporate lifestyle. I don't need that to invade my hobby writing too. No one from FASA, FanPro, or Catalyst ever paid me to visit Dumpshock and post, I did it because I enjoy it. It's a bit insulting to think that a writer would be scared of you all. I mean, if we didn't appreciate the fans, why would we be writing for Shadowrun? It's not the paycheck!

Fine, maybe you'd consider me spineless, but considering the pure unvarnished vitriol I'm seeing, I stand behind my position. I have to deal with enough taking psychological abuse and being made a personal example of a company I have no control over in my real job of being a convenience store clerk. Note I didn't say I'd leave, just that I'd never reveal I was a freelancer.

[Demonseed Elite]

There just isn't really all that much pure, unvarnished vitriol around here. Things got pretty heated during the recent management clusterfuck of 2010, but that was by far an exception to the standard way things go around Dumpshock (and the Shadowrun fan community in general). And if that parade of closed threads wasn't to your taste, you could pretty easily avoid it and continue to post in the various relatively civil threads discussing rules or setting material.

[Kruger]

Fine, maybe you'd consider me spineless, but considering the pure unvarnished vitriol I'm seeing, I stand behind my position. I have to deal with enough taking psychological abuse and being made a personal example of a company I have no control over in my real job of being a convenience store clerk. Note I didn't say I'd leave, just that I'd never reveal I was a freelancer.

Most people who write and actually get things published aren't afraid of criticism. I don't know if you're a writer, or have ever written, but you'll never get anything in print if you're afraid to have to stand up and say "I wrote this." Anyone who has ever been published can tell you how many things they wrote that didn't. So I doubt too many Shadworun writers stayed away from the forums because they were afraid or intimidated. I bet just a lot of them didn't care. It takes a special type to want to brave the horrors of online forums.

[X-Kalibur]

There just isn't really all that much pure, unvarnished vitriol around here. Things got pretty heated during the recent management clusterfuck of 2010, but that was by far an exception to the standard way things go around Dumpshock (and the Shadowrun fan community in general). And if that parade of closed threads wasn't to your taste, you could pretty easily avoid it and continue to post in the various relatively civil threads discussing rules or setting material.

He does make an excellet point, most of the venemous posts were limited to the threads that were intended for them. We still had plenty of perfectly relevant and mostly civil threads going, even between people who were at each other's throats over the whole incident.

[Yerameyahu]

By the way, how do you varnish vitriol? It's a liquid. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Acme]

Most people who write and actually get things published aren't afraid of criticism. I don't know if you're a writer, or have ever written, but you'll never get anything in print if you're afraid to have to stand up and say "I wrote this." Anyone who has ever been published can tell you how many things they wrote that didn't. So I doubt too many Shadworun writers stayed away from the forums because they were afraid or intimidated. I bet just a lot of them didn't care. It takes a special type to want to brave the horrors of online forums.

Oh yes, me worried about getting jumped for things I may not have even written is clearly because I'm afraid of criticism.