Summoning & Binding mechanics, See if I got this right Options

[HugeC]

Before I begin, I'd like to say that I tried the search function, but couldn't find a post that confirmed how I think it works, so I must ask. Here is how I think it goes from my reading of the rules:

Stage 1 - the Summoning
Mage rolls Magic + Summoning opposed by spirit's Force. Net hits on this roll are the number of services the spirit owes. Mage must resist drain DV equal to twice the hits spirit got on its roll.

Stage 2 - the Binding
Mage spends a bunch of nuyen on binding materials and rolls Magic + Binding opposed by spirit's Force x 2. One net hit on this roll is required for the spirit to be bound. Each additional net hit adds a service. Mage must resist drain DV equal to twice the hits spirit got on its roll.

The main thing that seems to be debatable here is whether services owed from the summoning carry over after the binding. By my reading, they do. This has the side-effect that re-binding a spirit is always inferior to summoning a new one to get a bunch of services and then binding it (well, except for how long it takes, but binding already takes hours, so it's negligible).

Izzat right? Is there something I'm missing that makes re-binding awesome?

[Summerstorm]

Aye... perfectly right, everything.

But to expand on the rebinding:
On some occasions rebinding is very preferable. Mostly for people who already invoked a spirit (And had a lot of hits empowering a spirit to high levels). You may want to keep that one.

[HugeC]

Ah, invoking! Well, that's something. Thanks for checking my understanding!

[SaintHax]

No. Minor error is the minimum DV suffered was left out, but the big one is that summoning services do NOT carry over. Summoning is much easier, and bound services are superior. Read the rebinding section, it's clearer there.

[Jaid]

No. Minor error is the minimum DV suffered was left out, but the big one is that summoning services do NOT carry over. Summoning is much easier, and bound services are superior. Read the rebinding section, it's clearer there.

there are no summoning services owed, or binding services owed. there are services owed by spirits, and the spirit can be either bound or unbound. it does not matter where those services come from, they are simply services owed. bound spirits can perform some tasks that an unbound spirit can't, but in either case they are simply services, and it is the nature of the spirit (bound or unbound) which determines what the spirit can do, not the origin of the service owed.

the difference between binding and rebinding is that in binding, the first hit is used up to bind the spirit. this merely makes it even more clear that summoning services must carry over, because otherwise you could have a spirit that owes 5 services, have a "successful" binding session, and the spirit would then be bound but owe no services and therefore go free.

also, i could see other reasons to rebind rather than summon and bind...

perhaps you need a lot of services on one spirit. like 20.

perhaps when summoning a very powerful spirit, you got extremely lucky and took no drain. now, you can probably survive rebinding it, but you may not have a very good chance if you have to take damage twice, once from summoning and once from binding.

perhaps you have developed a specific agreement with that spirit. if you have a history of treating that spirit well, it may respond better than other spirits. (yes, this is dependant on the GM, but it's still possible and even plausible).

perhaps you have a spirit from another tradition which you were able to banish and then bind before it could leave. you can't just summon this spirit to replace it, so if you want to keep it you must rebind it.

perhaps you have your maximum number of spirits bound and need more services on one spirit, but do not wish to lose the current services that spirit owes.

[Dakka Dakka]

perhaps when summoning a very powerful spirit, you got extremely lucky and took no drain. now, you can probably survive rebinding it, but you may not have a very good chance if you have to take damage twice, once from summoning and once from binding.

To me that is not so much of an issue. You have until the next sunrise/sunset to bind the Spirit. Unless you summoned the spirit shortly before sunrise or sunset, you have ample time to get fixed up between summoning and binding.

I also have a question about Binding: Does the ritual fail/end at sunrise or sunset unless it is a Rebinding?

[Jaid]

To me that is not so much of an issue. You have until the next sunrise/sunset to bind the Spirit. Unless you summoned the spirit shortly before sunrise or sunset, you have ample time to get fixed up between summoning and binding.

I also have a question about Binding: Does the ritual fail/end at sunrise or sunset unless it is a Rebinding?

you have ample time to recover if it's stun damage. that is not necessarily the case for a powerful spirit.

and i believe there is some unofficial dev comment that it should be possible to bind past the sunrise/sunset mark, but i can't remember where.

[Neraph]

The spirit lasts until the binding ritual is complete. Same thing for sprites, otherwise you'd never be able to get over a R8 sprite.

No. Minor error is the minimum DV suffered was left out, but the big one is that summoning services do NOT carry over. Summoning is much easier, and bound services are superior. Read the rebinding section, it's clearer there.

I believe what he meant is that when you run out of services on a summoned Fire Spirit and resummon one later you don't get "rollover minutes," unlike the services a bound spirit gives.

[Dakka Dakka]

you have ample time to recover if it's stun damage. that is not necessarily the case for a powerful spirit.

If First Aid is successful the damage is healed in a matter of minutes no matter if it's stun or physical.

[Jaid]

If First Aid is successful the damage is healed in a matter of minutes no matter if it's stun or physical.

that's not necessarily easily assumed. for example, let's suppose i summon a force 8 spirit. i get absurdly lucky, and only get 2 DV, which i reduce to 0. that's not something that is going to happen very often. i can't rely on that. it's entirely possible that i will get something unpleasant like 10 DV, and maybe only reduce 1-2 points away. this isn't something that can be readily first aided into nonexistence.

now, i could just release the spirit and hope that if i summon i get another free batch of services that doesn't come with a free 10 DV, but i could also just re-bind the force 8 spirit that i already have, without having to worry about the added element of randomness.

[Dakka Dakka]

If you're planning on binding let alone invoking spirits of a force exceeding your Magic attribute, you better have skilled paramedics at hand. Anyway my point was that time is hardly an issue since all damage reduction that First Aid can offer won't take long.

I agree with you that, if you already have a bound spirit of appropriate power, you should rebind it instead of releasing it and summoning and binding a new one.

[Halinn]

the difference between binding and rebinding is that in binding, the first hit is used up to bind the spirit. this merely makes it even more clear that summoning services must carry over, because otherwise you could have a spirit that owes 5 services, have a "successful" binding session, and the spirit would then be bound but owe no services and therefore go free.

Where are you getting that from? You need only one net hit to bind a spirit and compel a "long-term service" (they use similar wording for sprites, i.e. long-term tasks)

Binding is used to compel long-term service from a spirit the magician has already summoned. Binding requires a ritual of a number of hours equal to the force of the spirit. The ritual materials, available from a talismonger, cost 500¥ times the Force of the spirit. Magical lodges are not required for binding, but they are often used out of habit.
At the end of the ritual, the magician makes an Opposed Test pitting her Binding + Magic against the spirit’s Force x 2. The magician may receive additional dice from a spirit focus or a mentor spirit, if she has one. The magician requires one net hit to bind the spirit. Additional net hits beyond the first add to the number of services the spirit owes.

This post has been edited by Halinn: Aug 13 2010, 10:31 AM

[Emy]

Where are you getting that from? You need only one net hit to bind a spirit and compel a "long-term service" (they use similar wording for sprites, i.e. long-term tasks)

Not compel a long-term service. Adding the article 'a' there is misleading, because 'a spirit service' has a specific game meaning, which is not being used here. The first sentence of that paragraph simply indicates that Binding is used to make a spirit that you've already summoned serve you for a longer period of time.

(Not to be confused with Long-Term Binding [from Street Magic] or its technomancer equivalent Linking).

edit: Furthermore, I think that the last sentence of the paragraph Halinn quoted makes it clear that "summoning services" (as SaintHax called them) carry over.

Additional net hits beyond the first add to the number of services the spirit owes.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Izzat right? Is there something I'm missing that makes re-binding awesome?

The other benefit that I do not see mentioned about re-binding is that the spirit remembers things like anyone else. It is not huge but it can be useful.

[Jaid]

Not compel a long-term service. Adding the article 'a' there is misleading, because 'a spirit service' has a specific game meaning, which is not being used here. The first sentence of that paragraph simply indicates that Binding is used to make a spirit that you've already summoned serve you for a longer period of time.

(Not to be confused with Long-Term Binding [from Street Magic] or its technomancer equivalent Linking).

edit: Furthermore, I think that the last sentence of the paragraph Halinn quoted makes it clear that "summoning services" (as SaintHax called them) carry over.

Yup.

I agree with you that, if you already have a bound spirit of appropriate power, you should rebind it instead of releasing it and summoning and binding a new one.

which was my initial point. i may have been slightly unclear, but my point was essentially that you could quite possibly have spirits where binding the spirit was only a good idea in the first place because you just happened to get really lucky rolls for the summoning test, and that in such a case you would be better off re-binding.

[Neraph]

Not to mention you're only allowed 1 summoned spirit, but up to your Charisma bound spirits.