What's the point of melee? Options

[MDosantos]

So basically me and my group started Shadowrun three weeks ago. None of us have experience with the system. Last week we fumbled a bit with the combat system (missed on the initiative passes and a couple of modifiers). But this week we got into full combat... Basically it was the last combat in "Everyone's your friend".

The characters are, a Radical Eco-Shaman, a Street Samurai, a Gunslinger Adept (straight from the book) and a Bounty Hunter made from scratch.

Point is, the character with the Gunslinger Adept, could make with two pistols, 12 attacks on a turn (3 initiative passes, 4 with two simple actions per pass), on the other hand the bounty hunter who fought in melee with two katanas, only had 1 attack with 1 complex action.

The deal is, the gunslinger dispatched 3 guys in 2 turns, while the bounty hunter just hit one. Needles to say, the bounty hunter felt kinda useless.

We all felt on the table that ranged combat was clearly superior to melee combat...

Am I right? Or did we do something wrong?

[Shinobi Killfist]

No you are right. And the SR4 fans will be sure to say all the witty don't bring a fist to a gun fight comments I am sure.

Melee combat is worthless unless you cheese your character out quite a bit.

[Mäx]

Did you use all the rules for shooting.
That gunslinger adept only has 11(possibly 2 more from atribute boost) dice to shoot, so for shooting both guns at the same time thats 6(7) dice for one and 5(6) dice for the other pistol, under optimal conditions. Unless the she was shooting them from less then 5m away thats -1 to those pools (-3 if over 20m distance), then there's -1 from recoil to second shots of every IP and if she shoots more then 1 target in the same IP that -2 dice to shoot the second target
That doesn't leave har with many dice per shot, she really isn't build for shooting akimbo.

But yes, melee isn't that good unless you optimize your character for it, but you can build a character that hits harder then an assault cannon while unarmed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Acme]

Well to be honest, ignoring Shinobi's comment...

I don't think the problem is "don't bring a fist to a gunfight", I think in your given situation you had a problem of a character that was completely fine-tuned to firearms paired with a regular character. Of course the gunslinger adept is going to go around spitting lead into things, that's what the build is designed to do. What I would recommend is one of two things.

1) Have everyone just get into a fight with one another using just melee if you're interested in learning the rules and what does and doesn't work.

or at the very least:

2) Have a character like your bounty hunter paired with the one with two katanas go into it so you can see a regular ranged combat paired with melee.



Because frankly, I think it might have just been the fact of the one with multiple passes paired with a guy with one that is the real problem. When I ran people though 4e and they had comparable initiatives, the character (a troll with not much in the way of cybering) that often did melee with spurs held his own just as well as those with spells and guns.

[Critias]

Melee combat is worthless unless you cheese your character out quite a bit.

Or unless...well...you don't have a gun.

To me one of the aspects of a Gunslinger Adept (or dedicated shooter Street Sam, or Merc, or whatever) is that overspecialization breeds weakness. Take 'em out of their element from time to time, and let the other characters shine. You can't always bring a gun with you. A gun won't always be the appropriate answer. If the group gets captured, it won't be a min/maxed pistoleer who overpowers the first guard or two. If the group has to win a bare-knuckle-boxing tournament to help out, or to establish, a contact, you won't send a Gunslinger into the cage.

Any time a character overspecializes after "discovering" how much better anything is compared to anything else, it shouldn't take a GM a little bit of work to make the "anything else" come up, in-game, and let someone else shine a little.

[Mooncrow]

Well, not to argue the basic point, but you have a character optimized for combat (adept) vs one who's not. If your bounty hunter had guns, how many more would he have taken down? 3 IPs vs 1 isn't going to leave the guy with 1 feeling like he's doing anything.

That said, in a normal firefight, melee combat is pretty weak (you know, like someone using a sword against guys with guns might be) though there are some nifty tricks you can pull if you build for it.

[MDosantos]

Did you use all the rules for shooting.
That gunslinger adept only has 11(possibly 2 more from atribute boost) dice to shoot, so for shooting both guns at the same time thats 6(7) dice for one and 5(6) dice for the other pistol, under optimal conditions. Unless the she was shooting them from less then 5m away thats -1 to those pools (-3 if over 20m distance), then there's -1 from recoil to second shots of every IP and if she shoots more then 1 target in the same IP that -2 dice to shoot the second target
That doesn't leave har with many dice per shot, she really isn't build for shooting akimbo.

But yes, melee isn't that good unless you optimize your character for it, but you can build a character that hits harder then an assault cannon while unarmed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

He was firing from less than 5 meters, (they surprised the enemy also) but to be honest I really wasn't keeping in mind the distance, I'll keep it in mind for the next combat, thanks.

Also, is recoil cumulative? as in if I fire a second time on my first IP (-1) then on my second IP I'll have a -2 and a -3 for the following two shots? Because as I read it, you had recoil per action phase, and each IP gives you a new Action phase. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[MDosantos]

Or unless...well...you don't have a gun.

To me one of the aspects of a Gunslinger Adept (or dedicated shooter Street Sam, or Merc, or whatever) is that overspecialization breeds weakness. Take 'em out of their element from time to time, and let the other characters shine. You can't always bring a gun with you. A gun won't always be the appropriate answer. If the group gets captured, it won't be a min/maxed pistoleer who overpowers the first guard or two. If the group has to win a bare-knuckle-boxing tournament to help out, or to establish, a contact, you won't send a Gunslinger into the cage.

Any time a character overspecializes after "discovering" how much better anything is compared to anything else, it shouldn't take a GM a little bit of work to make the "anything else" come up, in-game, and let someone else shine a little.

This I know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) . I'm not an experienced GM, but I've read a lot on it and I know sometimes you have to take a character out of its element to let others shine. Is just that it felt that he shined too much and I wanted to know if it was my fault or it was just the way the system worked.

I'll keep this in mind too for the next session.

[Kruger]

Well, except in Warhammer 40K, the man with the gun is always going to have a distinct advantage over the guy with the sword. It's just the very nature of ranged combat. Distance, rate of fire, ease of target acquisition, etc.

Throwing all the realism of ranges and movement to contact, etc out the window, if your Bounty Hunter was wired up to be as fast as the Gunslinger Adept he could clock in a lot more melee attacks per round. But, in the end, melee combat isn't ever going to compare straight up.

That's not to say it is useless by any means. There are situations where simply shooting a guy is going to either be a bad decision, or not feasible. Or you're low on cash and drugged darts are expensive, lol. But yeah, the character who is melee centric is probably going to be at something of a disadvantage in any kind of "modern" gaming system. There's a reason why they don't issue swords to Marines or soldiers these days.

[Glyph]

I think Max had it right - the gunslinger adept has a measly pool of dice when you split it in two, then have negative modifiers for recoil, switching targets, etc.

A melee fighter can also attack multiple targets by splitting his dice pool.

Still, usually melee is something you do when you don't have a gun handy - which can still come up a fair bit, since there are places where a runner won't be able to carry, even concealed. So generally it is either the province of genuine martial artists (melee-focused builds can be scary), or a backup skill for close quarters.

So what kind of 'ware, skill, etc. did the bounty hunter have? If he was not built to be a fighting machine, then obviously he will not be as good as the gunslinger archetype - the archetypes may not be optimal, but that particular build is still a very combat-focused one.

[Mäx]

Also, is recoil cumulative? as in if I fire a second time on my first IP (-1) then on my second IP I'll have a -2 and a -3 for the following two shots? Because as I read it, you had recoil per action phase, and each IP gives you a new Action phase. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Nope its not cumulative over different IP:s.

[Shrike30]

Using the subdual rules can make a character brutal in melee combat, as it gives you the ability to first neutralizing an opponent and then doing a pretty hefty chunk of damage to him (choking him out, basically) at Str damage, rather than Str/2. This does require more advanced combat tactics than "I hit him again!" but it's worked for me more than once to take out someone who was shrugging off bullets with 800 pounds of ballistic armor, but running light on the impact.

[Voran]

Melee, and by relation, unarmed combat, may seem less fulfilling on the surface, but that assumes optimal circumstances. In the case for a firearm user, the optimal circumstance is "I'm in a situation where I get to carry and use my firearms."

Here's where the out of game stuff and in-game stuff collide. Obviously, there are situations where firearm users should NOT be able to use firearms, as there are locations where even with most levels of concealed gear (aside from the heavy borg character) wouldn't make it through security. And the heavy borg might have internal weaponry, but would pretty easily get flagged as a heavy borg.

Now, out of game, most players would scream bloody murder and claim its unfair to deny them the ability to use their gun bunny by yknow, being logical and not letting them cart around their custom firearms rig while wandering around the White House, or the like. So to avoid the hassle and headache, I've seen GMs just tweak things to let the gunbunnies always find ways to cart around their entire load and use it at the drop of a hat. Sealed arcology that you have to pass through 5 levels of security and a strip search? Nah, you still get to keep your guns. On a commercial flight? Sure you can carry your firearms through the airport and onto the plane, no big deal.

Unfortunately, this then tends to overshadow the situations where melee/unarmed types can shine, in situations where you can't use guns/ranged weapons. So in such a case, ranged types will always outshine melee types because the scene is always artificially in favor of gun characters.


As a side note, I also find it useful to play melee types (Npc threats) smart. Obviously if the PCs get the guys in an ambush, the npcs are screwed, but why do npcs always have to travel in easily ambushed groups? A couple ninja like security ops trained in close combat that trail behind and/or in front of the main group, so if the main group is ambushed, the melee types can come in from the flanks under cover and camoflage and jump the PCs in close combat.

[ColdEquation]

You know (grognarding ahead, continue at your own risk) I once had a guy who absolutely had to twink and he absolutely had to have his specialty characters, so when the first Shadowrun Companion and its rules for shapeshifters came out, he just had to cook up a tiger 'shifter who was, as can be expected, complete murder at close combat. I pointed out that he'd probably find himself at a disadvantage if anyone caught him at range, but he scoffed, pointing at his character's regenerative powers and all-round nasty toughness. He'd rely on thrown knives for his ranged attacks, thanks! He was happy with his character, and I couldn't sway him from his ideas, so we went on.
I've always been a believer that tough love should happen in-game, anyway.
So there they were, trying to flee from some rather upset Reach Fuileach agents in the grassy glens of Tir na Nog, and suddenly the elves see something they didn't really expect- a large tiger trying to lope its way toward them and into its lethal range. Did I mention that this particular engagement occurred at approximately 100 meters? Looking back up my post, I see that I did not. Well, that's a ways, even for a running tiger, especially in a game like Shadowrun. Having become a sudden fire magnet, the tiger was quickly riddled with NATO 5.56 and reduced to such hamburger that even its regenerative properties could not restore it. It would seem from this tale that the principle is clear- guns make men gods in the age of Shadowrun

Or do they?

The main problem that most people have with melee, it seems, are not the rules, but the tactics employed. Once bullets have started flying is not the time for someone to go charging recklessly ahead into melee. In the close-combat training I've had, three principles have been drilled without end:

1. Strike First.

2. Strike Fast.

3. Strike Hard.

From the top then:

Striking First

To strike first, it behooves a character to get the drop on their gun-wielding opponent. In order to shoot you, the gunman must know that you are present, have line of sight, and go before you in initiative. A lot of this falls under the purview of the Stealth skill. Choose the terrain. Close combat is much more appropriate in narrow alleys or confined hallways indoors than it is on an open field or wide, empty street. Use cover and bait to lure your target in close.
Also, see the rules governing Surprise (pgs 165-166 in my SR 20th anniversary edition.) Remember, bringing a gun to a fistfight doesn't actually mean you'll get to use that gun, and a guy with a gun who is 1 meter away from you has sacrificed his primary advantage.

Striking Fast

This differs from Strike First in that it's about when combat is already underway. Don't dally. Get stuck in and start dishing out hits. If you're going to have to move to engage, you've probably already lost this one, grab your pistol and start sending lead downrange. But if you're in range to fight, do so now! Additionally, it sounds like a large chunk of the issue with your bounty hunter is that he only got to go once to the Pistol Adept's three times. Well, there's your problem right there- that Gunslinger Adept has Improved Reflexes at 2. What was the Bounty Hunter like? Any reflex mods? Unless he just rolled really crummy that turn, I'm gonna guess not.

Striking Hard

Look, I'll level with you- you want to be good at melee in Shadowrun, you gotta have a decent Strength attribute. Shocking, I'm sure. Then, add some leverage to that Strength by using good weapons. Katanas are decent- half strength + 3 physical damage, not shabby at all. A good skill in using those razors is imperative. Look into strength boosting cyberware or abilities to make your character better at melee.

"But Cold, you urban ninja," I hear you say, "none of this changes the fact that a souped-up Gunslinger can mow things down like a Weed Whacker at a salad bar while my melee boy only gets one attack." To which I reply, remember what we said earlier about what the gunman has to have to hit an opponent- and recall that not all Lone Star beat cops or corporate security strike team members are dumb drones. Once it's clear that the enemy has an advantage at range, it makes sense for them to try and deny them that advantage. This is what things like smoke grenades, handy cover, and ruthenium polymers are for. With a little forethought, you, the Game Master can prepare scenarios where all your characters' talents will be tested, and that will make the game fun for everyone involved, hopefully.

Good luck, and welcome to the Shadows.

[Voran]

Strike First! Strike Hard! Show no mercy sir!

[Thanee]

The big question here is... does the world adjust to the characters or do the characters have to adjust to the world?

In a world were most people you fight carry submachineguns, you are a little underquipped when you walk around with just a sword.

Melee combat definitely has its place, but firearms are clearly the superior weapons in most situations, as it is.

Bye
Thanee

[Ascalaphus]

As a general rule, if you want to feel like you matter in a fight, you should have nearly as much IPs as the guy with the most IPs.

Also, the example characters in the book just aren't all that good, not all of them anyway.

[Critias]

More than a shooting versus melee issue, it seems like the OP's concern is a "character versus character" issue (and from the sounds of things, compounded by a rules misunderstanding). A properly focused Melee Adept can do some awesome stuff, and would make a Private Investigator archetype look as silly/worthless as this Gunslinger Adept made the Bounty Hunter look.

A sample size of one -- rules misunderstanding aside -- isn't large enough to really have a major concern about game balance with. In this instance it sounds like it was a fairly specialized combat oriented character, and a not. Number of IP's is one symptom of the issue, for instance, just like melee vs. firearms was only one symptom.

[Mäx]

He was firing from less than 5 meters, (they surprised the enemy also) but to be honest I really wasn't keeping in mind the distance, I'll keep it in mind for the next combat, thanks.

For that close quarter shooting you should also keep in mind this:

Attacker in Melee Combat
If the attacker is attempting to conduct a ranged attack while engaged
in melee combat, or if he is aware of another character trying to block
his attack within two meters of him, the attack suffers a –3 modifier.

Makes it evan harder for the gunbunny shooting akimbo, if that comes to effect its not in anyway quranteed she can even hit the enemies anymore.
But getting to 1m from the target does alleviate that problem a little

Target Point-Blank
A target within one meter can be difficult to miss; apply a +2 dice pool modifier to the attack.
Note that this may be offset by the Attacker in Melee Combat modifier.

[toturi]

And what did the Street Sam or the Shaman do?

The gunslinger shot more people than the bounty hunter cut down, as the OP has posted. But what did the rest of the team do?

[The Jopp]

In the scenario you outline it seems that you had the drop on enemies at short range, I\m not surprised the gunbunny "won" the battle.

Keep in mind that the oppossition would most likely do what the players do.

1. Firefight ensues
2. Everyone instinctively dives for cover while drawing guns
3. Shitstorm of lead begins
4. Everyone pops up from behind cover to shoot stuff

Also, if the character is in cover there is -1 to hit as they pop out from cover to shoot.

[codemonkey_uk]

Also, if the character is in cover there is -1 to hit as they pop out from cover to shoot.

Smartgun system with Image Link (which a Gunslinger will have) gets rid of this, no? They just point their gun round the corner and pop pop down goes another NPC ....

[Draco18s]

Or unless...well...you don't have a gun.

This comment only reminded me of a job where we had to go kill a guy we'd already killed for the Yakuza. All we had was his finger.

So we roamed the streets looking for a nearly-identical bum, gave him plastic surgery, some make up, etc. etc. and killed him on camera (cutting off his finger).

But I'm getting ahead of myself. When we found a match we went to go pick him up, and we had to beat him with his own hobo bag because no one could do stun damage. Anyone who could do melee combat had bone lacing, and no one owned less than explosive ammo.

[The Jopp]

Smartgun system with Image Link (which a Gunslinger will have) gets rid of this, no? They just point their gun round the corner and pop pop down goes another NPC ....

I would actually say yes and no.

You would need a Guncam to actually see what you shoot at and the (most likely) ankward position you stick your hand out might very well give more recoil.

Not to mention that the NPC's might do the same which means a stalemate...that's when the melee characters sneak out and charge around cover.

[Mäx]

you would need a Guncam

Smartlink is a guncam. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)