What's the point of melee? Options

[CanRay]

You just completely hit the nail on the head.

Using the Club skill, no less!

[Ascalaphus]

What would be the result if you changed to defense check against Melee attacks so that you only get Reaction, or Reaction+Skill when doing full defense? Shouldn't that make things more even in a cleaner way than by altering damage codes?

[Nifft]

By Corp bar do you mean...
A. A bar run by the corporation the salaryman works for?
B. A bar run for salarymen by a third party (usually a subsidiary of one corp or another)?
C. A bar in the barrens salarymen visit to act tough?

In anything but C, things don't go well for the runner. Especially if its A and MCT turf (MCT runs the fake sin, find its fake.. runner dead). Or B and Organized Crime Turf. (Being that Organized Crime is really efficient. Broken jaws are not good business and the runner doesn't have a family or corp to miss him.) As for C, heck the cops don't even show up.

In my world, (B) would end up costing the runner a bribe, but he'd probably walk away from it. He would not be welcome in that establishment for at least a year.

Also, I have places between B and C (for salarymen who want to act tough in a Corp-approved setting), that are basically mob or even gang controlled establishments, to whom a Corp has paid protection money to on behalf of some of its workers. The gang gets some steady income, plus they get to rob any hangers-on who aren't careful about sticking near their untouchable Corp citizens, and the Corp... well, they get to monitor what their salarymen are doing when the salarymen think they are outside the Corp's borders.

[The_Vanguard]

What's the point of melee?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkSFIWzi7aA



(Sorry, couldn't resist)

[Faradon]

From my experiences combat seems to happen about 60/40 or so of indoor vs outdoor. Indoors, if people want to close in to melee it is usually pretty easy to do so. With imact armor usually being lower than ballistic especially when using a -2 or -3 AP weapon what does get through can really hurt.

I find that players who are really good in melee tend to take people out faster (when they can engage them) than many ranged attackers are able to.Especially when darkness, smoke, cover, flashbangs, etc. are added into the mix.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yeah, you can make some combat monsters if you sink the BPs into it, but that's not really the point. Almost everything else, drop 16 BPs for 4 skill, and you're quite competent if it is linked to a boosted attribute. If you're an average sammy and does that with unarmed combat, you have a hard time tickling a single guard - and as much as I like unarmed combat, not just backup but also to control people and situations where drawing guns just send the wrong message, it isn't and shouldn't be your main combat trick.

But you miss an important point, I think... Unarmed combat is not meant to be a lethal form of fighting, and that is what you are comparing it to. Look at a competant Melee person, say Skill 4 (Your choice above), Agility 6 (A level of augmentation, which is common), a Strength 5, and a Katana, and the fight looks a little different.

Guns are very deadly, Fists are generally not... Blades are somewhere in between... I think that this is adequately represented in Shadowrun. Of course, some will disagree...

[SaintHax]

I find that players who are really good in melee tend to take people out faster (when they can engage them) than many ranged attackers are able to.Especially when darkness, smoke, cover, flashbangs, etc. are added into the mix.

I can tell you from experience, the guy with gel rounds in his silenced Ares Pred is still better.

[Critias]

I can tell you from experience, the guy with gel rounds in his silenced Ares Pred is still better.

I can tell you from experience, it really depends on the guy with the melee build and the guy with the ranged build.

[BlueMax]

I can tell you from experience, it really depends on the guy with the melee build and the guy with the ranged build.

And the situation
the GM
The phase of moon

The only thing I can tell for certain is different, is the /2

BlueMax

[DrZaius]

I can tell you from experience, the guy with gel rounds in his silenced Ares Pred is still better.

In my opinion, there's a difference between a 'melee focused' build, and just having the melee skill. I take a melee skill with every character, for the same reason I take athletics; if I don't, my GM will drown me. Or in the case of melee, attack me with ghouls or dogs or ghoul-dogs.

-DrZaius

[Yerameyahu]

Dog-ghouls.

[Traul]

You don't want a melee skill against ghouls. You want Dodge. And Running (specialization: for your life).

[CanRay]

Yeah, Ghouls are a situation that you want an Autoshotgun for. AA-16 is a good suggestion.

[Trevalier]

Please. This topic is crazy subjective. Speaking with any authority on the intimidation value of one vs. the other is honestly a li'l silly. I'm not afraid of guns in general and have spent my entire life around them, but I have had one pointed at me before and frankly, I was more than a li'l concerned. Intimidation is largely a matter of displaying intent and ability. A gun can certainly lend some credibility as ably as a knife can.

I haven't been able to find any good research on this topic, but from various accounts I've read and heard, the difference is less in how much each weapon is intimidating, and more in how it is intimidating. People seem to report a more visceral fear of knives, while experiencing more intellectual fear of guns. "That object scares me" vs. "I know that object can easily kill me". It's been suggested that such a difference could arise from the fact that nearly everyone has been cut at some point, and thus has a point of reference for what a knife wound would feel like, while most people have never been shot. In lines of work in which an individual is more likely to have been shot (say, shadowrunning), the distinction might disappear or be reversed.

Ultimately, as you said, it's subjective, and depends on the character of the person on the wrong end of the weapon. Personally, I'm properly scared of both, and being confronted with either prompts an urgent impulse to have it not aimed in my direction.


On the actual topic of the thread: You can't make an attack of will with a ranged attack. (You could make one with a gun by trying to smack the spirit with it, though.) On the other hand, your melee skills won't help you, either, since it's a straight-up Willpower roll if you don't have Banishing. Of course, if you're reduced to relying on attacks of will, you're pretty much screwed already.

[Omenowl]

Erwin Rommel put it best when he described his bayonet charge. The man with the last bullet in his gun wins... (He was shot in the leg leading a bayonet charge in WW1).

One should be trained in both close combat and ranged weapons. Ever see the special forces and wonder why they train in both? There are times when you want to subdue your opponent and would like them conscious. There are times where you won't have a weapon. There are times when you will find yourself out of bullets. There are other issues such as a silenced firearm can be heard up to 1 mile and unsilenced weapon up to 5 miles. I think the last thing a shadowrunner want is every Corp building (including those who have nothing to do with the run) within a mile radius on high alert as they are trying to flee.

The general consensus in life has been a guy with a knife will kill you. A guy with a gun will shoot you and that may kill you. The crime statistics tend to show this to be true as well. The lethality of a knife is deemed at 21 feet which is where 40% of all gunfights occur. My friend tested that hypothesis and found between 2 armed opponents one with a knife and the other a gun it was about 50/50 when they tested it. The big difference was once the knife fighter closed the pistol wielder would have been killed and the knife fighter was usually wounded when shot. This is a huge difference.

[SaintHax]

I can tell you from experience, it really depends on the guy with the melee build and the guy with the ranged build.

I'm about as boss as you can get with a knife, a ranged build with half my karma is my equal in most circumstances-- better if he's cyber and there's a background count of 3 or more. I picked pistol, since I went knife-- closest comparison I could think of.

[Saint Sithney]

I'm about as boss as you can get with a knife, a ranged build with half my karma is my equal in most circumstances-- better if he's cyber and there's a background count of 3 or more. I picked pistol, since I went knife-- closest comparison I could think of.

You've got to leverage the gear to your advantage, man.
1) Poison your blade, always. Narcoject adds 10stun to your attacks. If it doesn't put them out cold, it still adds cumulative negative modifiers from damage. Gamma-scopolamine causes instant paralysis, which is just another word for death. Suddenly, strength seems less important, neh?

2) Biomonitor + Auto-injector. Get several. Put them in your shin guards, forearm guards, everywhere. Biomonitor senses an overwhelming fear response, the auto-injector takes a non-action to dose you with Guts. You are now immune to fear. Damage = Stim patch. Toxin = antidote patch. Overflow = trauma patch. Having a pharmacopia at your fingertips can help you through some serious troubles.

Really, melee combat is about trapping a guy in an unfavorable position (-3 to shoot while in melee and you Intercept if he tries to disengage) and using Two Weapon Style maneuver to go on full defense while continuing to attack. Add on the Disarm maneuver and Arnis de Mano's damaging disarm ability, and, for less than 10 BP total, you will murder every chump who comes within arm's reach.

Sure, there are situations when closing distance with an enemy isn't a good option, but, when waiting around a corner with a held action is an option, walking into that is a bad scene even for a competent gunfighter.



But, we can all agree that the original scenario, as OP described it, was missing a bunch of negative modifiers.

Remember OP, you split up the character's dice between each gun, so that's 5 dice on one and 6 on the other. The gunfighter doesn't get smartlink bonuses when firing with two weapons simultaneously, so it is just 6 pistols + 5 agility.
Then, after being split up to 5 and 6 dice, there is a cumulative -2 penalty per target engaged in an IP. So, that's 5 dice for the primary target and 4 for the secondary target, or 6 and 3 dice.
Next, were there any negative modifiers? Did any of the targets have partial cover? Was the bar smoky? etc? That might shave some further dice off the first shots.
Now, it's time for the 2nd Simple action. So, that's two more guys for -4 and -6 dice respectively. Plus that stock character doesn't have any recoil compensation, so that's an additional -1 to the dice pool. So, he's left with 1 die on the 3rd target and -2 on the 4th, or -0 dice on the 3rd target and -1 on the 4th.

Not exactly four kills a pass.

Oh, and then there's defense.
The club-swinging attackers should be getting +2 dice to defense for running, since they'd likely be doing charge attacks. Possibly more for partial cover. Well, that's after they got caught flat-footed I guess..
But, once they do engage the gunslinger, his dicepool takes another -3 hit on all fronts, and if he tries to disengage to mitigate that, they can hit him again with a free action if they've got one available..

Don't worry too much about it. I've got some links for you though, which should help you keep track of all these overly-complicated things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

Cheet sheets here

[Voran]

Heh, Saint, suddenly I'm reminded of the RIFTS Juicer with all those autoinjectors and drugs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[CypherDragon]

There are other issues such as a silenced firearm can be heard up to 1 mile and unsilenced weapon up to 5 miles. I think the last thing a shadowrunner want is every Corp building (including those who have nothing to do with the run) within a mile radius on high alert as they are trying to flee.

Maybe out in rural or other open areas (like the parking lot at your local Stuffer Shack). But in a built-up urban area, this distance is misleading. When you start taking in to account cancelling echoes, intervening buildings, ambient background noise, etc. the distances get much shorter; you'd be lucky to be able to recognize a normal, uncompensated gunshot 2 blocks away in New York City, let alone be able to tell exactly where it came from. Inside a building is even worse for sound carriage, since most buildings are designed to minimize how much sound will travel (absorptive materials, creative construction, HVAC white noise, etc) beyond the immediate area. It's perfectly plausible to hold a gunfight outside some corp exec's office, and when the team bust in have the exec be completely unaware...unless the team is using explosives!

[Darkeus]

Heh, Saint, suddenly I'm reminded of the RIFTS Juicer with all those autoinjectors and drugs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Dude yeah. Wow, I am totally seeing a "mini-Juicer" in Shadowrun. It would work and make that dude addicted.

Hmm... I think I need to flesh that out a bit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

The perception tests on silence guns in SR4 are actually pretty low, esp. with mod/integral silencers and/or subsonic ammo.

[WyldKnight]

My weapons specialist would drop people with melee constantly.

Unarmed 4 + Agi 6+ Skill Group Recorder + Optimized Cyberarm for Unarmed combat = 12 dice on average without mods like ally in melee, a Tacnet, or a spec. Since most characters I fought (and most in my group) lacked unarmed when I got in close I could actually drop them rather quickly. My general tactic was using thermal smoke for cover, run up close, disarm them and either beat them senseless (6 DV so it didn't take long) or in the case of groups get close, disarm, hold their buddy like a shield, and spray them with bullets from his gun. And for the record the negative mod to my pool for disarming was only -1 after my first mission because of a martial art and then taking a Spec in said martial art. Nothing says noob like taking a persons gun and shooting them with it.

Disarm is your friend, use him wisely. And since it requires Unarmed that is also your friend.

[Emy]

Unarmed 4 + Agi 6+ Skill Group Recorder + Optimized Cyberarm for Unarmed combat = 12 dice on average without mods like ally in melee, a Tacnet, or a spec.

You have an optimized cyberarm for unarmed combat, but you -didn't- pump its Agility up to 9?

[WyldKnight]

Oi! I knew I forgot something lol, thanks for catching that. His flesh was 6 but the arm was 9. You know I was looking at that 12 dice and I knew it sounded lower then I remember but I don't have my sheet with me so I forgot the arm had maxed agility. One other thing, my group doesn't allow people to take the martial art quality without a melee combat skill that matches. We don't know if thats in the book but we just play it like that so no one takes Krav Maga but can't throw a punch.

[WyldKnight]

Oi! I knew I forgot something lol, thanks for catching that. His flesh was 6 but the arm was 9. You know I was looking at that 12 dice and I knew it sounded lower then I remember but I don't have my sheet with me so I forgot the arm had maxed agility. One other thing, my group doesn't allow people to take the martial art quality without a melee combat skill that matches. We don't know if thats in the book but we just play it like that so no one takes Krav Maga but can't throw a punch.