What's the point of melee? Options

[V-Origin]

Just for disarm? No, that was just my favorite thing to do with it AND a good way to make unarmed useful. If all the person can do is shoot a gun and you take the gun away from them how do they fight? If they have a second gun that's not hard to take away either and that's only if I didn't kill him with his own gun before he had a chance to take out the second one. I won't explain the background but I fought our groups Gunslinger adept and ended the fight by taking both of his revolvers (he didn't think a gunslinger needed unarmed) and then beating him to death with them. Sure I used blunt but it's still a melee skill. The point is Unarmed isn't exactly the smartest thing to specialize in UNLESS you turn the battlefield to your advantage.

Close the distance using cover and distractions and suddenly your the scariest thing on the battlefield as the enemy can't shoot you without shooting their friend and you use their friend as a shield to get closer to them. Take the enemies weapon and either use it against them or just throw it away and begin beating them at something they aren't prepped for. With very little optimization you can easily hit for 9 DV. But like all builds they have their uses.

How about Yoda?

You get a shapeshifter (tiger) who shapeshifts into a gnome.. max it with adept powers and/or cyber/bio/gene/nano..

approach enemies via stealth under cover.. cover can means a crowd of people, buildings, cars, trees, boulders, even smoke or places where there are no light.. since you are a gnome you should be able to take advantage of your small sizes to maximize cover..

if a bunch of enemies are close to each other, then attack one at an angle which shields you best from the line of sight from the other enemies.. again your small size will give your better cover than if you are a hulking troll ..

if the enemies are spread far apart, that is even better as that will make it harder to target you.. you are practically next to their comrade in their sights and with all the movement, they might hit their buddy instead..

Ultimate version.. a shapeshifter tiger adept who shifts into a 45 cm pixie.. if the GM allows it of course as a pixie isn't exactly metahuman..

This post has been edited by pattyhulez: Aug 17 2010, 10:12 AM

[Shinobi Killfist]

Except its a 100 times better then a long burst(what gun are you using to get 20+ points of damage) as its counts against penetrating armor, meaning you deal Physical damage to targets which also means you can hurt vehicles.
With that rule, you could get your unarmed damage to somethink like 24P with out being an adept and atleast the same with AP-half by being an adept.
That ridiculous beyond belief, that's more damage then a full-auto assault cannon.

Except the gun is infinite times better because it is at range...

Whopedy do unarmed could get to a higher DV, it still sucks in so many other ways it is fine. A normal SMG with ex-explosive can get to 15DV, no fanciness, no special powers, just a SMG with good ammo. You can use weapons like the thunderstruck to blow the crap out of virtually anything. A mage can do 10+DV to an area, can do it unresisted to vehicles and it is really an issue that someone can punch a citymaster?

I'd rather balance things around the norms instead of worrying about the pornomancers. Right now with str/2 it isn't balanced around the norms.

[StealthSigma]

Except the gun is infinite times better because it is at range...

Whopedy do unarmed could get to a higher DV, it still sucks in so many other ways it is fine. A normal SMG with ex-explosive can get to 15DV, no fanciness, no special powers, just a SMG with good ammo. You can use weapons like the thunderstruck to blow the crap out of virtually anything. A mage can do 10+DV to an area, can do it unresisted to vehicles and it is really an issue that someone can punch a citymaster?

I'd rather balance things around the norms instead of worrying about the pornomancers. Right now with str/2 it isn't balanced around the norms.

Barrett Model 121
FA modification
Gas Vent System 3
Shock Pad Accessory

9P, -4AP, SA/FA, 4(6) Recoil.

Fire a full burst at a -3 recoil penalty off a 19 Dice pool (-2 if you have 6+ strength), use APDS ammo....

9P + 5 Net Hits + 9P damage from full burst.... 23P -8AP.

100% legit by book rules and it'll only cost you 20,450 nuyen. Run it with long bursts and you'll sit at about 20P -8AP on average (assuming the target is unaware).

[Doc Chase]

Barrett Model 121
FA modification
Gas Vent System 3
Shock Pad Accessory

9P, -4AP, SA/FA, 4(6) Recoil.

Fire a full burst at a -3 recoil penalty off a 19 Dice pool, use APDS ammo....

9P + 5 Net Hits + 9P damage from full burst.... 23P -8AP.

100% legit by book rules and it'll only cost you 20,450 nuyen. Run it with long bursts and you'll sit at about 20P -8AP on average (assuming the target is unaware).

And require a reload after every pass.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

And require a reload after every pass.

Nothing like extra clips and extended clip can't do to help.
And even if you have to spend an action every pass to reload, it will be equivalent to melee (one attack per pass) but from distance.
Melee is weaker than ranged? Sure, it was supposed to be like that, it doesn't mean you can't build people who are monsters of melee attack.

[Doc Chase]

Nothing like extra clips and extended clip can't do to help.
And even if you have to spend an action every pass to reload, it will be equivalent to melee (one attack per pass) but from distance.
Melee is weaker than ranged? Sure, it was supposed to be like that, it doesn't mean you can't build people who are monsters of melee attack.

I'd just take the Vietnam-era world record distance sniper kill weapon:

A .50 MG with a scope on it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[StealthSigma]

Nothing like extra clips and extended clip can't do to help.
And even if you have to spend an action every pass to reload, it will be equivalent to melee (one attack per pass) but from distance.
Melee is weaker than ranged? Sure, it was supposed to be like that, it doesn't mean you can't build people who are monsters of melee attack.

You can't do extended clip since the firing mode mod takes 4 slots and the gas vent takes 2.

Since it's a sniper rifle the range increments are 0-150, 151-350 (-1), 351-800 (-3), 801-1500 (-6), but there's nothing keeping you from taking aim when firing full auto....

So you could do the following....

Take Aim (remove range penalties) - Simple Action
Long Burst (20P -8AP 8/14) - Simple Action - End Pass
Take Aim (remove range penalties) - Simple Action
Long Burst (20P -8AP 2/14) - Simple Action
Eject Clip - Free Action - End Pass
Insert Clip (14/14) - Simple Action
Long Burst (~18-20P -8AP 8/14) - Simple Action - End Pass

Wash, Rinse, Repeat...

Edit: It's really kind of sick to think about seeing something like this work....

[Doc Chase]

You can't do extended clip since the firing mode mod takes 4 slots and the gas vent takes 2.

Since it's a sniper rifle the range increments are 0-150, 151-350 (-1), 351-800 (-3), 801-1500 (-6), but there's nothing keeping you from taking aim when firing full auto....

So you could do the following....

Take Aim (remove range penalties) - Simple Action
Long Burst (20P -8AP 8/14) - Simple Action - End Pass
Take Aim (remove range penalties) - Simple Action
Long Burst (20P -8AP 2/14) - Simple Action
Eject Clip - Free Action - End Pass
Insert Clip (14/14) - Simple Action
Long Burst (~18-20P -8AP 8/14) - Simple Action - End Pass

Wash, Rinse, Repeat...

Edit: It's really kind of sick to think about seeing something like this work....

It reminds me of the Bozar from Fallout 2. But being able to send 5 .50 cal APDS rounds downrange about 1500m with minimal penalty? Herrrrrgh.

[StealthSigma]

It reminds me of the Bozar from Fallout 2. But being able to send 5 .50 cal APDS rounds downrange about 1500m with minimal penalty? Herrrrrgh.

Minor correction.... 24 .50cal APDS rounds downrange 1500m accurately with -no- penalty as long as you can use the bipod in under 3 seconds if you have synaptic booster 3 or wired reflexes III. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

You get minimal penalty when you fire full bursts with the bipod deployed.

I'm assuming that 4 net hits would be sufficient to declare you have a very narrow spread.

[Doc Chase]

Minor correction.... 6 APDS rounds downrange 1500m with -no- penalty. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Excuse me while I update the 'Things I'm No Longer Allowed To Do In Shadowrun' thread. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[sabs]

*cough*
overmod
*cough*
put in the extended clip, and you can throw down 10 APDS rounds downrange 1500m with -no- pentalty

[StealthSigma]

*cough*
overmod
*cough*
put in the extended clip, and you can throw down 10 APDS rounds downrange 1500m with -no- pentalty

Extended clip changes the magazine size from 14 to 17-18 (17.5) depending on how generous the GM feels. It's good since it allows you to do a full and long burst with each clip and if it's 18 rounds that lets you do 3 long bursts before reloading!

However, having forgotten about overmodding....

Add electronic firing and heavy barrel. That's another 2 Recoil Compensation. Swap in an auto-adjusting weight for the bipod, or swap it for a tripod to eek out an extra 4 recoil compensation while prone.

Gas Vent 3 (3 Recoil Compensation)
Heavy Barrel (1 Recoil Compensation)
Electronic Firing (1 Recoil Compensation)
Shock Pad (1 Recoil Compensation)
Auto-Adjusting Weight (2 Recoil Compensation)
6+ Strength (1 Recoil Compensation)
Total: 9 Recoil Compensation, full offsetting the full auto recoil penalty while standing.

[Doc Chase]

Gas Vent 3 (3 Recoil Compensation)
Heavy Barrel (1 Recoil Compensation)
Electronic Firing (1 Recoil Compensation)
Shock Pad (1 Recoil Compensation)
Auto-Adjusting Weight (2 Recoil Compensation)
6+ Strength (1 Recoil Compensation)
Total: 9 Recoil Compensation, full offsetting the full auto recoil penalty while standing.

Clearly this is the rifle Golgo 13 should be using, not that push-button scoped M-16.

[sabs]

Not to nitpick, but by RAW

Gas-vent systems can be built into machine pistols, SMGs,
assault rifles, and machine guns.

of Which said Ares Sniper Rifle is none

[StealthSigma]

Not to nitpick, but by RAW



of Which said Ares Sniper Rifle is none

Well, gas vent is overkill on any gun that can only shoot SS or SA, of which the -majority- of weapons outside those listed weapons categories are. Of note is that every weapon inside those categories is BF/FA capable. It is a perfectly reasonable assessment that the Gas Vent should be restricted to weapons that can fire BF/FA, especially when considering that modern variants of the Barrett M82 use a muzzle brake which is essentially a gas vent recoil compensator.

[sabs]

It maybe reasonable
but is it RAW
Those two have never been necessarily compatible.

[Smokeskin]

I'd rather balance things around the norms instead of worrying about the pornomancers. Right now with str/2 it isn't balanced around the norms.

This.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Barrett Model 121
FA modification
Gas Vent System 3
Shock Pad Accessory

9P, -4AP, SA/FA, 4(6) Recoil.

Fire a full burst at a -3 recoil penalty off a 19 Dice pool (-2 if you have 6+ strength), use APDS ammo....

9P + 5 Net Hits + 9P damage from full burst.... 23P -8AP.

100% legit by book rules and it'll only cost you 20,450 nuyen. Run it with long bursts and you'll sit at about 20P -8AP on average (assuming the target is unaware).

The pornomancer of the sniper rifle world. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[X-Kalibur]

I feel that the best answer to the original question posed here is this: Melee is for when you don't have access to your firearms. Much in the way your sidearm is a backup to your longarm, your melee is a further backup for when you are out of ammo, unable to sneak a firearm in (ceramic knives are cheap and small) or another opponent has engaged you in CQC. A melee centric character probably won't be as effective as a firearms oriented character and in that regards both are foolish to completely ignore eachothers skill sets.

[Mäx]

Whopedy do unarmed could get to a higher DV, it still sucks in so many other ways it is fine. A normal SMG with ex-explosive can get to 15DV, no fanciness, no special powers, just a SMG with good ammo.

Good luck doing physical damage with that as only 6 points of it count for that.
Is it really balanced(or more like logical) in your eyes if you need a full auto gauss rifle to get anywhere nere the damage the adept can do with bare hands.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Good luck doing physical damage with that as only 6 points of it count for that.
Is it really balanced(or more like logical) in your eyes if you need a full auto gauss rifle to get anywhere nere the damage the adept can do with bare hands.

Um, yeah because your point is totally irrelevant. A gauss rifle without full auto blows up the vehicle just fine. Sure a SMG isn't anti-vehicle but I'm not running many against the tanks missions. It gets to absurd damage just fine and will splatter virtually all opposition, so a SMG is not as good at taking out vehicles but it is superior in many ways. So I don't really care that a fist does a bit more damage when ranged combat handles virtually everything and has more options, and magic handles everything including vehicles, so yeah it is balanced fine if the thing that is more limited managed to get to a higher DV with your pornomancer builds to try and prove something is broken.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Barrett Model 121
FA modification
Gas Vent System 3
Shock Pad Accessory

9P, -4AP, SA/FA, 4(6) Recoil.

Fire a full burst at a -3 recoil penalty off a 19 Dice pool (-2 if you have 6+ strength), use APDS ammo....

9P + 5 Net Hits + 9P damage from full burst.... 23P -8AP.

100% legit by book rules and it'll only cost you 20,450 nuyen. Run it with long bursts and you'll sit at about 20P -8AP on average (assuming the target is unaware).

And yet, it will still not penetrate the side of a Citymaster (14dv Relevant vs. 16 Armor Modified)... no penetration... So Sad...

[Traul]

If you want to get a Citymaster, you should have packed AV rounds, not APDS.

EDIT: you got the math wrong. The total is -8, not -4. -4 from the rifle and -4 from the APDS. Even with APDS, it works.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If you want to get a Citymaster, you should have packed AV rounds, not APDS.

EDIT: you got the math wrong. The total is -8, not -4. -4 from the rifle and -4 from the APDS. Even with APDS, it works.

Indeed... Missed the Barret AP... Ooops... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Saint Hallow]

Supposedly using guns in close quarters is hard to do, even though most RL gun battles take place with the shooters less than 30 feet from each other. The idea of shooting in close quarters were that if you had a long weapon (rifle, assault rifle, shotgun, SMG)... it would be harder to bring about the barrel of the gun into proper location for firing.

Has anyone though about using weapon size (aka the concealment rating) of a weapon as a modifier to grappling/melee combat that involves someone trying to use a firearm in close combat? If you have a long weapon and are trying to bring it to bear on a target, but the target rushes you so he/she is in melee... things like that could make melee more viable, as well as make combat more exciting in terms of tactics.

Just a silly thought in my head.