What's the point of melee? Options

[The Jopp]

Smartlink is a guncam. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Doh, good point.

Why the hell do they have a separate "guncam" that one can mount on a weapon?

[Ascalaphus]

Doh, good point.

Why the hell do they have a separate "guncam" that one can mount on a weapon?

Because there are still guns sold without smartlink?

[Elfenlied]

Doh, good point.

Why the hell do they have a separate "guncam" that one can mount on a weapon?

If you mean the Smartgun Camera Upgrade from Arsenal, that's just to equip the guncam with additional vision mods.

[The Jopp]

Because there are still guns sold without smartlink?

But WHY?

The cost of a single Guncam is 375Y and a top mounted smartgun WITH Camera is 400Y. The only thing I can think of if you want multiple recording cameras linked to a smartgun system.

Not to mention that depending on the gun cost the smartgun link with guncam is CHEAPER than the Guncam...

Like a light pistol for 100Y that costs 200Y with internal smartgun link...

[Grinder]

So a guncam would double the cost of a AK-97 (ok, I'm a bit exaggerating, but you get the point).

[The Jopp]

If you mean the Smartgun Camera Upgrade from Arsenal, that's just to equip the guncam with additional vision mods.

Actually, no - that is the job for the "Camera Upgrade" modification.

[Doc Chase]

Striking Hard

Look, I'll level with you- you want to be good at melee in Shadowrun, you gotta have a decent Strength attribute. Shocking, I'm sure. Then, add some leverage to that Strength by using good weapons. Katanas are decent- half strength + 3 physical damage, not shabby at all. A good skill in using those razors is imperative. Look into strength boosting cyberware or abilities to make your character better at melee.

Not necessarily. Someone with a monowhip is going to do some nasty business even if they've got a STR of 2. Which reminds me, I need to get my PbPoster a monowhip and related skill...*cackle*

"But Cold, you urban ninja," I hear you say, "none of this changes the fact that a souped-up Gunslinger can mow things down like a Weed Whacker at a salad bar while my melee boy only gets one attack." To which I reply, remember what we said earlier about what the gunman has to have to hit an opponent- and recall that not all Lone Star beat cops or corporate security strike team members are dumb drones. Once it's clear that the enemy has an advantage at range, it makes sense for them to try and deny them that advantage. This is what things like smoke grenades, handy cover, and ruthenium polymers are for. With a little forethought, you, the Game Master can prepare scenarios where all your characters' talents will be tested, and that will make the game fun for everyone involved, hopefully.

Good luck, and welcome to the Shadows.

It puts a lot of onus on the GM, but in the end it's worth it. Any good GM with a party makeup like this should be an adept player at Xanatos Speed Chess.

[CanRay]

But WHY?

Old guns that date before smartlinks. Or ones that are newer, but from the days when Smartgun Links required a cybernetic installation to work. (BTW, I don't allow the "Mental Control" of a Smartgun unless the person has a DNI with his CommLink or a Smartgun Link. So all you'd get is the "FPS Bonus".). Neither one would come from the factory with a SmartLink.

And there is the fact that aftermarket External Smartgun Links can be removed from a firearm and put onto another of the same model. (Why pay twice the price for an AK-97 that you might have to ditch at a moment's notice when you can pay the price for a stock one, and keep the smartgun link for the next AK you get.).

[Doc Chase]

If I'm running a mage or a purist adept, they tend to carry weapons without smartlinks and with laser sights. The Colt Manhunter has been the sidearm of choice for 95% of my characters since 2nd ed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[CanRay]

If I'm running a mage or a purist adept, they tend to carry weapons without smartlinks and with laser sights. The Colt Manhunter has been the sidearm of choice for 95% of my characters since 2nd ed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I like the Browning Ultrapower, but, then again, I'm a fanboy of John Browning. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

But, yeah, there's still a big market for people that don't want Smartlinks or Laser Sights or such. Purists that think the only sights you need on a firearm are the Iron Sights.

[sabs]

True
but smartlink is the worlds cheapest +2 dice.
And you can get it with contact lenses.

[yesferatu]

Obviously, I've had melee success mainly with stronger characters.
If you're hitting for 10P with a combat axe or 9P with a katana, before net hits, chances are it's going to be one hit one kill.

On the other hand, anybody with 1+ strength can wield a gun, which makes it the default for most runners.

Melee based characters shine in situations where guns can't be used.
Ammo runs out, guns jam, sometimes you have a friend in the fight.
If you don't want to make a lot of noise or you've been searched for weapons, melee might be your only option.
Additionally, sometimes you don't want to kill a target, just overpower them.

Try grappling a gun bunny who isn't used to close combat and see how well they do.
Plus, ballistic armor is usually a little stronger than impact.

For good or ill, futuretech tends to favor firearms.

This post has been edited by yesferatu: Aug 13 2010, 05:15 PM

[MDosantos]

Thanks to everyone for the replies, as I said, I wanted to make sure of my mistakes and the system's part on the situation. I feel next time this won't be such an issue ^^

[Smokeskin]

The melee rules are kinda borked in that a character that's strong and skilled can hardly damage anyone - they need to be very specifically built to be effective, but then they can become quite overpowered.

[sabs]

Well, the problem also is that characters in melee range, got to add their dodge skill TWICE.

so if you're in melee your dodge pool is:

agility(reaction)+dodge+melee(ordodge)

where as against a gun it's
agility(reaction)+dodge

and that's it.

your melee dodge pool is anywhere from 1-8 dice bigger. That's a huge difference.

[Grinder]

The melee rules are kinda borked in that a character that's strong and skilled can hardly damage anyone - they need to be very specifically built to be effective, but then they can become quite overpowered.

Wanna provide us with an example for that? I've never got the impression that an armed melee fighter is unable to injure his opponents. Unarmed, well it depends on the race and the build, that's true.

[Acme]

I agree with Grinder. Please provide examples, Smokeskin, because I'm starting to believe that like Shinobi, the "melee sucks anyway" crowd is just really using that as an excuse for making a jab at 4e.

[Combat Mage]

Well it's true to some extend in my opinion.

For example a strong troll with an (augmented) Agility of 6 and Unarmed 6 has 12 dice. The ganger he's trying to hit has, let's say Reaction 4 and Unarmed 4. If the ganger goes on Full Defense the troll needs to be lucky to hit at all because it's 12 dice on both sides (neglecting reach but you get the point).

If the same troll had a firearm skill at 6 and a smartlink he would be at 14 dice versus the ganger's 8 on Full Defense. And he can shoot twice at that. (And that's not even counting stuff like wide bursts/chokes)

The firearm troll will almost certainly shoot such a ganger down in one action phase because he is likely to hit him twice.

The melee troll will be lucky if he get's a hit at all.


Of course you can build an adept with Agility 10 and Melee 10 and a Force 4 Weapon Focus with Personalized Grip for 25 dice (+reach) but that's the point. You need to build such extremes to be really effective at melee.
With firearms you can do quite some damage with only above average attribute and skills. For melee you need to be really specialized.

[Grinder]

Thought the question was more focued on the damage output and not the melee fighter's ability to hit someone in the first place?

[sabs]

If you can't hit.. how much damage you do is meaningless

[Combat Mage]

If it's just about base damage then I agree, the base damage is good enough considering cyber/bioware, martial arts and other stuff is there to boost it.

But of course the problem with hitting stuff translates into more net hits for gun users which in turn impacts the damage.

[Grinder]

True that, didn't take that into account.

[Blastula]

Well, the problem also is that characters in melee range, got to add their dodge skill TWICE.

so if you're in melee your dodge pool is:

agility(reaction)+dodge+melee(ordodge)

where as against a gun it's
agility(reaction)+dodge

and that's it.

your melee dodge pool is anywhere from 1-8 dice bigger. That's a huge difference.

That really could be interpreted as an attempt to make melee combats a bit more cinematic. You almost never see guys go down in one punch in the movies or even in literature unless (A: they were chumps or (B: they were sucker punched. Also, from a cinematic standpoint, the protagonist/chief antagonist are gonna be the only ones that walk away from the crapstorm of lead that usually gets spit out in movie gunfights. The Matrix is a good example of this. Commando is another. Lots of cases to reflect longer melee fights and short, brutal gun battles.

[Combat Mage]

But it's a lot less cinematic when hero#1 has a long drawn out melee fight with the big bad and then hero#2 comes and shoots the big bad down with two shots.

The problem is with melee you often need a long time for average enemies not just the really good ones.

[Draco18s]

That really could be interpreted as an attempt to make melee combats a bit more cinematic. You almost never see guys go down in one punch in the movies or even in literature unless (A: they were chumps or (B: they were sucker punched. Also, from a cinematic standpoint, the protagonist/chief antagonist are gonna be the only ones that walk away from the crapstorm of lead that usually gets spit out in movie gunfights. The Matrix is a good example of this. Commando is another. Lots of cases to reflect longer melee fights and short, brutal gun battles.

And cybercombat just kills you.* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

*This is personal opinion only. If you're in AR without IP boosters you'll get your ass handed to you,^ but you'll take no dumpshock (IC always gets 3 IPs). If you're in hot-sim VR then it'll depend on the difference between attack prog + skill and armor + system (as you'll both have 3 IP), but if you get dumped or encounter Black IC you're probably dead. Cold sim is somewhere in between (you get 2 IPs to any IC's 3) but will only take stun from the dumpshock. Of course, for technos you're just fucked: your matrix condition monitor is your stun track (and you're always hot--I think--and you still take dumpshock!).

You also have to factor in Probing the Target before hand vs. Hacking on the Fly (the later is significantly more dangerous).

^Having 4 IPs means you rock house in hacking via AR and take no penalties to performing meat actions at the same time. No really, simple action: Matrix + simple action: Meat gives no penalty.