What's the point of melee? Options

[StealthSigma]

So, you could argue that a silenced gun is as noisier as a knife and give the backstab a -6 penalty to hear as well.

Presumably, the problem with a knife and sound isn't the knife itself but rather keeping the individual who you are shanking from uttering noises.

[sabs]

Hand over mouth
Deep cut across the neck, severing the vocal cords and voicebox.
Special Forces have been killing people with knives quietly for centuries (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Smokeskin]

You can do that while using a gun, too. I remember Cobb doing this in Inception.

He was also catching the casings in his left hand when he fired (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[sabs]

He was also catching the casings in his left hand when he fired (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

electronic firing system
(caseless ammo)

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Presumably, the problem with a knife and sound isn't the knife itself but rather keeping the individual who you are shanking from uttering noises.

Well, the same problem could be given for a guy being shot by a silenced weapon. No matter how silence the weapon you are using is. If the target makes a noise you are screwed anyway.

[Smokeskin]

Same threshold, 2. You could try to argue that a 'silent stabbing' is threshold 3 (=='whispering').

I'd say 4 or 5 threshold to hear a stab.

[TommyTwoToes]

Hand over mouth
Deep cut across the neck, severing the vocal cords and voicebox.
Special Forces have been killing people with knives quietly for centuries (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think it is actually a stab through each lung. The slit throat tends to allow gasping gurgling noises and is not silent.
Harder to do but more effective is a shot to the brain stem.

Needless to say, people are inconveniently messy and noise when you try to kill them.

[Doc Chase]

Monofilament wire garrote, imo. Just have to hear the head hit the ground. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[StealthSigma]

Hand over mouth
Deep cut across the neck, severing the vocal cords and voicebox.
Special Forces have been killing people with knives quietly for centuries (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

In a world where people have comlinks embedded in their heads one doesn't need a voice to communicate "HELP! I'M BEING STABBED" just before they die.

[Smokeskin]

I think it is actually a stab through each lung. The slit throat tends to allow gasping gurgling noises and is not silent.
Harder to do but more effective is a shot to the brain stem.

Needless to say, people are inconveniently messy and noise when you try to kill them.

I've seen videos of cows having their throats cut (halal butchers), and you can't hear that at all. I don't think humans can produce any sound either. The cut and windpipe are too big. I'd say it is the kicking of feet, knocking over furniture, that you have to worry about.

[Randomonioum]

Killing someone silently with a knife is a lot harder than people would make out. You have to saw through someones neck, as you can't just make a clean cut, what with all the bone, tendons, muscles and whatnot in the way, while covering the mouth of a struggling, panicking full grown adult. You then have to keep them still, and silent, until they bleed out and fall unconscious. It would probably be easier to garrote them. Cleaner, too.

[SaintHax]

Killing someone silently with a knife is a lot harder than people would make out.

Does this matter in a game where your partners are an ork that throws fireballs and an elf with a head computer? Does reality only bend for them? I think not, and this is a hang up with many players.

[Randomonioum]

Does this matter in a game where your partners are an ork that throws fireballs and an elf with a head computer? Does reality only bend for them? I think not, and this is a hang up with many players.

I was just throwing that out there.

[LurkerOutThere]

Still Hax makes a valid point, people always seem to want to get "realism" in all the wierdest places. If you game isn't playing like spy or action movie because your getting realism on things your doing something wrong.

[Yerameyahu]

Smokeskin, look at the Perception Threshold table. You can apply Perception modifiers (DP penalties) to the test, but the *threshold* certainly isn't more than 3 (4 ==subvocal speech). Threshold 4 is *silent* already.

[killfr3nzy]

Hell, if you want to be unnoticed, you'll probably need to avoid actually harming anyone. You think it really costs that much for a Biomonitor w/ a 'broad-cast on death' sub-routine? Hell, that's what DocWagon uses.
Depending on how good the sensors are, there's a chance they could pick up drugs or unconsciousness.

Of course, if even half the grea in the books was properly used (or used at all), shadowruns would become impossible for most players. Rule of Cool for the Fun.

[sabs]

Hell, if you want to be unnoticed, you'll probably need to avoid actually harming anyone. You think it really costs that much for a Biomonitor w/ a 'broad-cast on death' sub-routine? Hell, that's what DocWagon uses.
Depending on how good the sensors are, there's a chance they could pick up drugs or unconsciousness.

Of course, if even half the grea in the books was properly used (or used at all), shadowruns would become impossible for most players. Rule of Cool for the Fun.

Except this is a perfect example of "why did we bring that hacker guy?"

Hacker finds the commlink on the security guard and owns it. Spoofs the biomonitor to broadcast, "all is well, or perhaps to loop the last 10 minutes of 'stuff' over and over again. The B&E guy stealths up and knocks out, kills, disables, takes out of the game the guard.

If all the gear was properly used, then shadowruns would require the various archtypes to work together during the run (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[killfr3nzy]

Admittedly my grasp of the rules is 'suck' - especially Matrix & to a lesser extent Astral - but couldn't the guards have their gear Slave'd to a node with decent protection? And/or Skinlinked?
Half the 'problem' is that there's so many different things that can be used for security and are overlooked/forgotten, the other half is that most of us lack any kind of 'security systems' knowledge.

Look at the Cyberware Scanner: Perception/Sensor + 6 to detect most any weapon and Cyberware within 15m, starting at Threshold 1. Cheap as hell, and insures that you either run with no F-ratings what-so-ever, or have Warrants matching your Biometrics and 'Ware Package.
It's one of those things I hesitate to buy, in case the GM uses it.

EDIT: Although, I could see a kind of 'Logic Houserule' that the Scanner looks for matching profiles, so a shielded compartment doesn't show up red flags.

[sabs]

The Biomonitor doesn't have the range to be slaved to something bigger.
That Biomonitor has by RAW either a 0 or 1 signal rating. Meaning that it has somewhere between a 3m and 40m range.
Now you could have a security node with a 4 signal covering the whole building, and slaving the biomonitors to that.. rather than the security guard's PAN. But that has it's own issues. You bring your own biomonitor, you spoof the guard's signature and access ID, and then you take his offline. The Node has a momentary blip, but that's it.


Cyberware scanners roll Device Rating, not Perception/Sensor+6.
Using EW+Spoof on them to muck up their sensors. The problem /I/ have is that.. basically in the world of 2072. Without a hacker/Techno you're fux0red. And the Techno is probably a better bet, because he's more likely to smash the opposition.

[Yerameyahu]

I think it's fine that you *must* have a hacker. That's the world, as you say, of 2070. Everyone should be a 'hacker', basically, just as everyone should have a gun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Yes, the gunbunny is *much* better at it, and the hacker is *much* better at his job, but everyone has a little.

[KarmaInferno]

I think it is actually a stab through each lung. The slit throat tends to allow gasping gurgling noises and is not silent.
Harder to do but more effective is a shot to the brain stem.

Needless to say, people are inconveniently messy and noise when you try to kill them.

I am reminded of this.

It helps if you know the actor was a member of the British Special Operations Executive during WW2...




-karma

[Saint Sithney]

If you are looking to kill someone with a knife, there are two good places, and they are both nerve clusters.

The first is in the kidney. Being stabbed in the kidney causes your nervous system to overload in much the same way as an electrical shock. The victim is immobilized, unable to move, or scream, but the stab itself is not necessarily fatal. The prime advantage is that it's easy, which is why it's the shank spot of choice in all our nation's finest prisons.

The second place is to stab upwards right below the xiphoid process on the sternum. Again, the CNS is overwhelmed and the person is paralyzed, but this wound is fatal. Doing this properly, you can sever the Aorta, perforate the diaphragm and do all other sorts of fatal nastiness. Best way to accomplish this one is to wrap your non-dominant arm around the target's neck, like in a choke hold while driving the knife in with your dominant hand, that way you can control them on the way to the ground.

So, if you're behind a guy with a knife, you've got two good options for taking the target down without a struggle.
Best part is, because they tense up, if they're holding anything, they won't even drop it.

[Emy]

Right, because movies are so accurate. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Right, because shadowrun is so accurate. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[DocTaotsu]

I think "Taking him offline" has become my new favorite euphemism for quiet sentry removal.

Also, I think the quietness of stabbing someone to death is probably reflected in the size of your dice pool. Joe Bill with a DP of 5 is probably going to be butchering someone and none to quietly. Jill Ninja with her DP of YES will probably do a fine job putting a blade wherever it needs to go to "take someone offline" on the quiet.

[SaintHax]

If you are looking to kill someone with a knife, there are two good places, and they are both nerve clusters.

That information isn't really important to playing ShadowRun. This is where my wife laughs at "nerds talking about killing/military".

(note: I like Saint Sithney, he's a great GM, but we do tend to wax poeticlly about "information not pertenant to the game, as if it's showing off e-pene length)