What's the point of melee? Options

[Critias]

But, uhh, melee IRL is easier to defend against and limited by range. This is pretty much something the rules got right.

There's still potential to tweak your character very specifically towards a melee-centric build, and murder a whole lot of bad guys very easily, so it's not like close combat is worthless. In the meantime, however -- just like it should be -- guns are a more efficient/easier route towards doing that, and all things being equal a dedicated gunman will beat a dedicated martial artist.

That's...I mean...that's right. That's how it should work.

[Neurosis]

I'll take a quick stab at this quickly dying horse topic....
Neurosis...the main differences in melee vs. guns are:
1. Melee is defended with reaction and dodge/parry/whatever (potentially Attribute + skill) and only has to be mitigated once an IP.
2. Guns are defended with reaction only, can be used at a distance, from multiple sources, and must be mitigated at least twice per IP.
3. The problem only multiplies with additional IPs, but it's essentially the same.
4. Each gun attack further reduces the defender's reaction until it's gone. At that point, the gunslinger only needs 1 success on however many hits they want. That doesn't even include the difficulty of avoiding different auto/semi-auto firing modes.
5. Guns attack twice as often and are resisted with half the dice.

Melee is at a disadvantage. Period.

1-3. Granted. Unless you are dual-wielding in melee and splitting dice pools, but that requires a massive dice pool (and therefore some crunch-building) to be effective.
4. Don't ALL incoming attacks do this?
5. Okay this is the only one I really take issue with, as this is just an exaggeration of your first four points! Not everyone has Defensive Skill = Reaction. Very few people do.

A. Unarmed attacks have the potential to do more damage/are harder to soak (if you are an adept/if you are using shock gloves respectively) and can be taken with you anywhere. Including past a MAD scanner. Imagine that Mr. Johnson has betrayed you and you want to get even. Nothing is better than walking into the meet, getting scanned for weapons, and then punching Mr. Johnson (who has, say Reaction 3 and no Dodge or close combat skill) in the throat for a million damage. Even if there are a hundred crunch-based reasons why it's a bad idea, I still love it on a flavor level.
B. Attacks with, say, a combat axe, have the same social restrictions as say, an assault rifle, but DEFINITELY do more damage if you are properly specc'd.
C. Guns need ammo.
D. This is the most specious admittedly, so I saved it for last, but with melee combat you never get penalized for cover or for well, range...except the innate penalty of needing to close the distance.

So comparing a properly specc'd bruiser and a well-built gunslinger it is a tradeoff of damage for attacks. Note that neither build below is particularly cheesed out or power-gamed.

For instance, imagine we have a standard chromed human samurai with an Ares Predator. Agility 6, Firearms 4, and Smartlink. First attack in a pass is at 12 dice, second attack is at 11 dice. He is attacking a Halloweener with Reaction 4. His base damage is 5P with an AP of -1.

Compare this with a melee-based troll bruiser. Let's call him Frank Trollman. Frank has Agility 4, Strength 9 (modest for a troll) Blades (Axes) 4, and a Combat Axe with Reach 2 (3 for Trolls). He gets only one attack, and rolls 13 Dice. If he flubs the roll, he doesn't get a second pop. He has a BASE damage of 9P with an AP of -1 and 13 Dice to stage that up. The Halloweener has Reaction 4 and Unarmed Combat 3. He has more dice to defend then if he were being shot at. But Frank still has a very good chance of landing a very big hit.

I will stop throwing out hypothetical scenarios right now.

Though the case can't be made for it being superior to ranged combat or even ALWAYS AND IN EVERY SITUATION ITS EQUAL, specc'd properly, melee is a perfectly reasonable alternative to guns.

There's still potential to tweak your character very specifically towards a melee-centric build, and murder a whole lot of bad guys very easily, so it's not like close combat is worthless. In the meantime, however -- just like it should be -- guns are a more efficient/easier route towards doing that, and all things being equal a dedicated gunman will beat a dedicated martial artist.

I agree with you totally up until the last clause of the last sentence (obviously you are right in real life, but not in the grim darkness of the magical cyberpunk future). To paraphrase one of my favorite authors, in a fight, other things are NEVER equal. Who was victorious between a well-built gunman and a well-built swordsman in Shadowrun would likely be determined by one very important incidental factor...what range the combat begins at. If the combat begins at melee range, it is very hard to imagine the gunman having a chance. They would have to A) Win on Initiative and B) One-Hit the Swordsman or very likely be one-hitted themselves. On the other hand, if we begin the engagement at say, 50 Meters, forget about it. Short of run-and-hide, the melee based character is fucked. And that is how it should be.

This post has been edited by Neurosis: Sep 2 2010, 06:49 PM

[yesferatu]

I have a little problem with that.
You shouldn't have to be Shao-lin to fight somebody in melee.
I think it's neat, but shouldn't somebody with 6 in close combat assumed be attacking as effectively as they can?
How is someone swinging a katana with blades 6 all that different from somebody with martial arts (BP5) and kendo?
You shouldn't have to dump 50 extra build points into your main attack to make it effective, guns are effective right out of the core.

[Neurosis]

I can't tell if that's a response to my post or previous posts but...

You shouldn't have to dump 50 extra build points into your main attack to make it effective, guns are effective right out of the core.

I don't disagree, but like-it-or-not there are very few RPGs that separate flavor from crunch and Shadowrun is certainly no exception. The fact of the matter is, murdering someone with your fist is COOLER than murdering someone with a gun and that is a big part of the reason it costs more points.

[Kruger]

I agree with you totally up until the last clause of the last sentence (obviously you are right in real life, but not in the grim darkness of the magical cyberpunk future). To paraphrase one of my favorite authors, in a fight, other things are NEVER equal. Who was victorious between a well-built gunman and a well-built swordsman in Shadowrun would likely be determined by one very important incidental factor...what range the combat begins at. If the combat begins at melee range, it is very hard to imagine the gunman having a chance.

All things even, the gunman still only has to draw his weapon, aim, and fire. If he already has ti ready, all he has to do is aim and fire. The swordsman still has to close a small distance, prepare his strike and then strike. Unless we're talking touch distance.

In which case, well, the gunman gets what he deserves and takes his lumps. Really, melee combat falls into one of two principle categories:

Flash and style. It's fun to imagine. It looks cool on screen.

Specialized applications: Grappling, impromptu encounters, fights in areas you can't have firearms against equally disarmed opponents. Desperation.


The melee build character is only ever going to exist in a gaming environment where the first category is the norm. If you're playing loose and fun, and the GM isn't really tracking distances and movement and time for combat, then you're probably set. If you're fighting a lot of scrubs whom you can overtake and overwhelm with enhanced speed, you're probably set. Nothing wrong with this style of play. But it only exists in that world.

In a more serious setting, the melee build character has spent a lot of points on being the best prepared for the second category. Nothing wrong with that either. Some people spend their entire lives studying the marital arts and the theory of kicking the crap out of people, and never doing it. And then they go to their day jobs. Hopefully you saved enough points to be a passable Face or a hacker or rigger or something.

[StealthSigma]

A. Unarmed attacks have the potential to do more damage/are harder to soak (if you are an adept/if you are using shock gloves respectively) and can be taken with you anywhere. Including past a MAD scanner. Imagine that Mr. Johnson has betrayed you and you want to get even. Nothing is better than walking into the meet, getting scanned for weapons, and then punching Mr. Johnson (who has, say Reaction 3 and no Dodge or close combat skill) in the throat for a million damage. Even if there are a hundred crunch-based reasons why it's a bad idea, I still love it on a flavor level.
B. Attacks with, say, a combat axe, have the same social restrictions as say, an assault rifle, but DEFINITELY do more damage if you are properly specc'd.

You lack 0 armor penetration, and while impact is typically 2 points lower than ballistic, you're completely ignoring how much hell APDS ammo imparts. It's far easier and cheaper to stack on damage using firearms than unarmed combat.

C. Guns need ammo.

With how quickly combat finishes, I've found that having to reload your weapon is not something that occurs often unless you're using lots of full-auto fire.

D. This is the most specious admittedly, so I saved it for last, but with melee combat you never get penalized for cover or for well, range...except the innate penalty of needing to close the distance.

Which is a huge disadvantage. Every IP you have to spend closing the gap is an IP where your opponent get 2 attacks against you. Considering I can easily drop a person with two attacks from an assault rifle, that is a huge disadvantage. If you choose never to close that range, then your melee character will never be able to drop the ranged combatant.

But then again ,of course, comparing an Ares Predator to a Combat Axe is innately unfair. So let's pretend that nameless sam has an Ares Alpha instead. His base damage is 5P which is inadequate but maybe he'd like to use a Long Narrow Burst. His damage goes up to 11P (AP -1). Autofire is a wonderful thing. But he is reduced to 9 Dice to attack instead of 12, after recoil compensation. Compared to Frank's 13. More importantly, if he were to fire a second long burst in the round he would be suffering a significant and possibly crippling penalty from the cumulative recoil. He would be reduced to a single die if firing a second long burst or reduced to a measly four dice if following up the long burst with a short burst.

Perhaps you should learn the rules a little more closely before throwing out a scenario.

#1 - The Ares Alpha, like most assault rifles is 6P -1AP. So with a long burst, his damage is 6+6P -1AP.
#2 - You cannot fire two long bursts in a singe IP. So his second attack would be a short burst that suffers a -8 recoil penalty, -6 after compensation. So his 12 dice pool is reduced to 6 not 4.
#3 - Your melee character very well may have been knocked on his ass from the first burst.
#4 - Wound penalties. Your melee character will be accruing them as he closes the gap.

I agree with you totally up until the last clause of the last sentence (obviously you are right in real life, but not in the grim darkness of the magical cyberpunk future). To paraphrase one of my favorite authors, in a fight, other things are NEVER equal. Who was victorious between a well-built gunman and a well-built swordsman in Shadowrun would likely be determined by one very important incidental factor...what range the combat begins at. If the combat begins at melee range, it is very hard to imagine the gunman having a chance. They would have to A) Win on Initiative and B) One-Hit the Swordsman or very likely be one-hitted themselves. On the other hand, if we begin the engagement at say, 50 Meters, forget about it. Short of run-and-hide, the melee based character is fucked. And that is how it should be.

No, it's going to break down to five important factors in a melee vs ranged fight.

#1 - Who goes first.
#2 - The distance that needs to be closed.
#3 - The weapon and ammunition used by the ranged combatant.
#4 - The armor used by the melee combatant.
#5 - The difference in IPs.

[Neurosis]

The melee build character is only ever going to exist in a gaming environment where the first category is the norm. If you're playing loose and fun, and the GM isn't really tracking distances and movement and time for combat, then you're probably set. If you're fighting a lot of scrubs whom you can overtake and overwhelm with enhanced speed, you're probably set. Nothing wrong with this style of play. But it only exists in that world.

In a more serious setting, the melee build character has spent a lot of points on being the best prepared for the second category. Nothing wrong with that either. Some people spend their entire lives studying the marital arts and the theory of kicking the crap out of people, and never doing it. And then they go to their day jobs. Hopefully you saved enough points to be a passable Face or a hacker or rigger or something.

Anything I've ever played (or far more often GM'd) falls somewhere in between the two. I do think the raw power difference between melee and firearms is less than imagined. I'm not saying there aren't several categories where there is advantage: guns. Also remember that cool does not always equate to unrealistic. Soldiers are trained in close combat in real life.

You lack 0 armor penetration, and while impact is typically 2 points lower than ballistic, you're completely ignoring how much hell APDS ammo imparts. It's far easier and cheaper to stack on damage using firearms than unarmed combat.

I sure did forget about relative Ballistic and Impact values, so many thanks for correcting that.

APDS ammo is very very very powerful...but it should also be pretty rare, not something that a GM gives out to PCs and NPCs like candy. APDS ammo in a heavy pistol immediately turns an Armor Vest into essentially nothing. So it oughtn't to be taken lightly.

With how quickly combat finishes, I've found that having to reload your weapon is not something that occurs often unless you're using lots of full-auto fire.

Agreed, it's a minor factor but it is a factor. Reloading is at most a simple action with most guns, so it is really only a factor at all with low ammo capacity and/or high cyclic rate.

Which is a huge disadvantage. Every IP you have to spend closing the gap is an IP where your opponent get 2 attacks against you. Considering I can easily drop a person with two attacks from an assault rifle, that is a huge disadvantage. If you choose never to close that range, then your melee character will never be able to drop the ranged combatant.

My current adept does have a sideline in ranged for these situations. Which I recommend to any melee based character! His melee capabilities are obviously super deadly, but his ranged capabilities are more in line with those of a combat hacker...not bad, but obviously not his strong suit.

Also he has pretty respectable athletics and hence he can close the distance faster than a combatant may like with a good Strength + Athletics roll. But I'm not refuting your point.

#1 - The Ares Alpha, like most assault rifles is 6P -1AP. So with a long burst, his damage is 6+6P -1AP.
#2 - You cannot fire two long bursts in a singe IP. So his second attack would be a short burst that suffers a -8 recoil penalty, -6 after compensation. So his 12 dice pool is reduced to 6 not 4.
#3 - Your melee character very well may have been knocked on his ass from the first burst.
#4 - Wound penalties. Your melee character will be accruing them as he closes the gap.

And to think I was literally writing that section with the rulebook open! Apparently I misread! And overlooked a few things. Oh well, only way to learn about the rules is to make mistakes.

#1: IIRC Long Burst adds 5, not 6? "Narrow long bursts apply a +5DV to the attack." SR4 p. 144. I know that's one thing you were wrong about to like three that I was. : P
#2: Mea culpa. You are correct. However does recoil compensation really apply TWICE? That is one point I was unclear on.
#3 & #4: Highly valid.

#1 - Who goes first.
#2 - The distance that needs to be closed.
#3 - The weapon and ammunition used by the ranged combatant.
#4 - The armor used by the melee combatant.
#5 - The difference in IPs.

As I was saying (paraphrasing actually) all things being equal, all things are never equal.

[Doc Chase]

No, ReComp refreshes at the next IP. That second burst in the pass should have the full recoil penalty.

[Neurosis]

Ah, as I thought.

Intricacies and nuances!

[StealthSigma]

#1: IIRC Long Burst adds 5, not 6?

Yes, that is correct, so it's 6+5P -1 AP instead of 5+6P -1AP. I saw your base damage was wrong and added 1 to it not noticing the bonus damage from your burst was incorrect. It's a rather important distinction as well, since the long burst damage doesn't factor into whether the attack is physical or staged down to stun damage. Recoil for the attack is essentially equal to total bullets fired minus one. The long burst fires 6 bullets. When it's the first attack, it confers -5 recoil. As the second attack it confers -6. So a Long/Short is a -5/-8 penalty. With 2 recoil compensation you face -3/-6.

While APDS ammo is hard to get ahold of (70 nuyen, 16F), Stick-n-Shock is much easier (80 nuyen, 5R) and arguably worse than being shot at with APDS.

You'll probably resist the KO as a troll, but you'll still take the -2 penalty from electrical damage.

[Neurosis]

The 5P for the Alpha's damage was pure typo, actually. My base damage was based on Base 6 + Long Narrow 5, and I just failed to type the right numbers.

If what Doc Chase said is true, than RC does not Refresh between bursts and you suffer -3/-8 with an Ares Alpha. First shot good, second shot probably not worth it unless the target has a Reaction of 'um'. (Of course if you're smart you'll switch up the second burst to Wide and make the target's Reaction irrelevant, but then again getting base damage through past an armored troll is no laughing matter either.)

My shock gloves to your stick-n-shock rounds. Let's assume we both have non-conductive Armor.

I don't honestly know what we're talking about any more. Melee is pretty cool, I guess?

[Doc Chase]

You'll probably resist the KO as a troll, but you'll still take the -2 penalty from electrical damage.

And new shorts after every burst.

[StealthSigma]

The 5P for the Alpha's damage was pure typo, actually.

If what Doc Chase said is true, than RC does not Refresh between bursts and you suffer -3/-8 with an Ares Alpha. First shot good, second shot probably not worth it unless the target has a Reaction of 'um'. (Of course if you're smart you'll switch up the second burst to Wide and make the target's Reaction irrelevant, but then again getting base damage through past an armored troll is no laughing matter either.)

My shock gloves to your stick-n-shock rounds. Let's assume we both have non-conductive Armor.

I don't honestly know what we're talking about any more. Melee is pretty cool, I guess?

Recoil Compensation applies to ALL attacks. What he meant is the recoil penalty stack doesn't disappear until the next initiative pass. You -always- get that 2 recoil compensation. Though personally, I feel as though recoil compensation should eliminate the recoil penalty permanently from the stack. So if you had 2 recoil compensation and fired Short/Short, I think it should be 0/-1 rather than 0/-3 or a Long/Short should be -3/-4 instead of -3/-6.

[Neurosis]

No, ReComp refreshes at the next IP. That second burst in the pass should have the full recoil penalty.

If that is what he meant it is literally the opposite of what he said.

[Yerameyahu]

Shock gloves don't compare to SnS bursts. Sorry. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Neurosis]

SnS is pretty broken, no argument there!

[Doc Chase]

Recoil Compensation applies to ALL attacks. What he meant is the recoil penalty stack doesn't disappear until the next initiative pass. You -always- get that 2 recoil compensation. Though personally, I feel as though recoil compensation should eliminate the recoil penalty permanently from the stack. So if you had 2 recoil compensation and fired Short/Short, I think it should be 0/-1 rather than 0/-3 or a Long/Short should be -3/-4 instead of -3/-6.

Reh? Are you sure about that? I've always read it as going the other way.

Fortunately, I have my book at my fingertips today! Let's see what it says...

Weapons that fire more than one round in an Action Phase suffer from an escalating recoil modifier as the rounds leave the weapon.

I know, there's more but it's just the numbers for bursts. It seems to apply to all rounds in an initiative pass, not per burst. The +3 ReComp that's coming from your rifle eradicates the short burst in the first action, and one point from the second leaving you with a 0/-5.

[Mäx]

However does recoil compensation really apply TWICE? That is one point I was unclear on.

Recoil comp applies only once.
Recoil for an attack is the number of rounds fired in that IP -1, this includes the round that the attack your making fires.
If you have 2 point of recoil comp the recoil is number of round fired -3, if you have 6 point of comp it number of rounds fired -7
The reason a short burst fired after a long one if -8 is becouse the recoil from the long carries over to next attack, but if you have 2 points of recoil comp there's only 3 points of recoil to carry over leaving that short burst with -6 dice to shoot.

[X-Kalibur]

And, realistically, combat quality melee weapons are expensive in real life too. Look at home much you'd pay for a katana that was actually properly forged. A hint: It's way more than you should ever consider spending on a sword. Probably due in a large part to the market for true combat ready swords and such is pretty niche. I wouldn't imagine, despite some of the artwork, it being much different in 2050+. Most of the expensive melee weapons were made of high grade alloys, had monofilament edges, or in some more silly cases, frickin' laser beams. Simple but effective firearms pretty much have always, and will always, be cheap to make. Stamp out some parts, some injection molded plastics, and bang.

Thousand nuyen Fineblade knives were probably a bit over the top though, heh. I think a good House Rule of thumb would be to halve the costs of all edged weapons.

All weapons have their places. While firearms are the most ubiquitous they don't exclude the need for a knife, club, unarmed skill, what have you.

I would note that a properly forged katana would be unnecessary unless you were getting one forged with bog iron like the originals were. With the higher grade of metals we have the forging process they used is laregely cosmetic by current standards.

And yes, the prices are ridiculous. I purchased a combat quality cut-and-thrust sword for $135 before shipping. Preliminary tests on the blade showed it to be sturdy, balanced, and sharp enough to cut through materials with a wrist snap. Higher prices usually account for look or 'brand'. Much like paying $300+ for a pair of Oakley sunglasses today. I would almost 1/3 to 1/4 the cost of the bladed weapons aside from perhaps the monosword.

[Neurosis]

Wow, thanks Shadowrun for making that nice and simple for us.

So firing a long and then a short burst with an Ares Alpha, you are at....

-5 +2 (-3) for the first burst and -3 -3 +0 (no recoil comp) for the second burst for a total modifier (before wounds, range, vis., etc.) of -3/-6?

In other news mmmmmmmmmonoswords. <3.

[Doc Chase]

And yes, the prices are ridiculous. I purchased a combat quality cut-and-thrust sword for $135 before shipping. Preliminary tests on the blade showed it to be sturdy, balanced, and sharp enough to cut through materials with a wrist snap. Higher prices usually account for look or 'brand'. Much like paying $300+ for a pair of Oakley sunglasses today. I would almost 1/3 to 1/4 the cost of the bladed weapons aside from perhaps the monosword.

Forged katanas (to differentiate from folded, as the old ones were) can run into the $5k range, but they're sharp enough that you can drop a piece of paper on the edge and watch it split.

It was pretty sweet to watch.

The price on Oakleys is coming down, though. I've only got two $300+ pairs now and their new stuff is getting under the $100 range.

[Mäx]

Wow, thanks Shadowrun for making that nice and simple for us.

So firing a long and then a short burst with an Ares Alpha, you are at....

-5 +2 (-3) for the first burst and -3 -3 +0 (no recoil comp) for the second burst for a total modifier (before wounds, range, vis., etc.) of -3/-6?

YOu got it right. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Neurosis]

It only took FOUR PEOPLE and TEN POSTS. lol.

[Kruger]

Anything I've ever played (or far more often GM'd) falls somewhere in between the two. I do think the raw power difference between melee and firearms is less than imagined. I'm not saying there aren't several categories where there is advantage: guns. Also remember that cool does not always equate to unrealistic. Soldiers are trained in close combat in real life.

I know this. I was a Marine. I can theoretically kick the shit out of people. Stomp heads, bayonet stabbing, all sorts of cool shit. I'm pretty good at grappling and jiujitsu too. Never once had to do much more than push some people in an actual real world environment. I'm no hardened special operations veteran (though I've worked closely with them and had several good friends in Force Recon and MARSOC), but I can't say I know too many people that did much more (and if they did they never told me), at least in any kind of conventional battlespace. Instinctively, even at close ranges people are going to go for guns if that's practical. Shadowrunners, of course, aren't normal people, obviously, so that's all relative and subjective.

My knife was a pretty sweet tool for cutting open MREs though. And sawing through 550 cord. I've seen guys whittle some sweet nunchaku out of tree branches when they had enough time to kill. Spent a lot more time shooting and training for movements whereas MCMAP was essentially PT. Some guys took it really seriously, but they are more enthusiasts and liked to spar and grapple. I'm not saying the close combat training was a joke, but it's something soldiers train for as a last resort or for use in specialized situations like described above.

Again, the mileage will vary for the melee character, but a katana is a big and clumsy thing to carry around if you're trying to be all sneaky and are loaded up with a bunch of other sweet high tech gear like a Shadowrunner. If you want to do things quietly, packing a dart gun seems more efficient, even if more expensive. Hacking people up is pretty noisy and messy, all things considered. And then you've killed the dude. Tasering/stun batoning/shock gloving etc is also probably not a very subtle affair.

[Doc Chase]

Dude - what swords aren't big and clumsy to carry around while you're trying to be sneaky? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)