What's the point of melee? Options

[StealthSigma]

Recoil comp applies only once.
Recoil for an attack is the number of rounds fired in that IP -1, this includes the round that the attack your making fires.
If you have 2 point of recoil comp the recoil is number of round fired -3, if you have 6 point of comp it number of rounds fired -7
The reason a short burst fired after a long one if -8 is becouse the recoil from the long carries over to next attack, but if you have 2 points of recoil comp there's only 3 points of recoil to carry over leaving that short burst with -6 dice to shoot.

Different methods same result. However, it's pretty obvious the recoil rules in place (regardless of which way it plays out) are balance oriented rather than logic oriented.

Why shouldn't recoil compensation apply to the second attack? Why does the gas vent 3 system suddenly cease to work on the second burst? Does a heavy barrel suddenly get lighter?

But then with the method I utilize why does the mitigated recoil still apply to the second attack?

Consequently, this is why I favor 2 recoil compensation on a Short/Short burst yielding a 0/-1 recoil penalty.

[Doc Chase]

I figure if you're putting 9 rounds downrange in two bursts in less than three seconds, physics is going to already be tracking that barrel up regardless of the compensation you've got on it.

Mechanically that recoil doesn't magically disappear off the long burst when you pull the trigger again, unless you're into the next IP and you've stabilized the jumping barrel.

[yesferatu]

I guess I'm mainly saying in your average run, why bother putting any points into melee when even using one gun at close range has a huge advantage?

Other than "it's neat".

[Kruger]

Yeah, IPs and actions are way too nebulous of increments to determine stuff like that. It takes very little effort to recover from weapon recoil in most instances, but it does take at least some effort and time. The rules as written decided that if you're firing two bursts in action phase, you haven't taken that time, so the recoil penalties are cumulative.

[StealthSigma]

Wow, thanks Shadowrun for making that nice and simple for us.

So firing a long and then a short burst with an Ares Alpha, you are at....

-5 +2 (-3) for the first burst and -3 -3 +0 (no recoil comp) for the second burst for a total modifier (before wounds, range, vis., etc.) of -3/-6?

In other news mmmmmmmmmonoswords. <3.

There is no difference between

-5 + 2 (-3) for the first burst / -5 -3 + 2 (-6) for the second burst and
-5 + 2 (-3) for the first burst / -3 -3 + 0 (-6) for the second burst

The end results are the same and I feel that the rules support the former interpretation more than the latter since I saw nothing that says recoil compensation is only applied once per action phase or that the recoil penalty is eliminated by recoil compensation.

However, I will concede that there may be some obscure situation that benefits from one interpretation over the other.

[Critias]

Dude - what swords aren't big and clumsy to carry around while you're trying to be sneaky? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

And here it just comes down to your idea of what you mean by "sword," really. Do you actually mean a purpose-built weapon, crafted to be finely balanced, wielded with skill and finesse, and -- historically -- a symbol of wealth and nobility as well as martial prowess?

Or do you just mean a bastard cutter, that would be wielded in Shadowrun with the Blades skill? Because there's plenty of fairly compact (relative to the bulk and awkward shape of a full-on katana) machetes, khukuris, tomahawks, etc, that are comparatively practical to carry around, even when trying to be sneaky. They tend to be designed for utility first and combat second, but they'll still get the job done if you need 'em to. Heck, just look at the good ol' entrenching tool, for that matter.

You don't have to go for a full-blown katana as a means of using the Blades skill to good effect. It just comes down to how much your game is run by the Rule of Cool, compared to practicality/realism concerns.

[Doc Chase]

And here it just comes down to your idea of what you mean by "sword," really. Do you actually mean a purpose-built weapon, crafted to be finely balanced, wielded with skill and finesse, and -- historically -- a symbol of wealth and nobility as well as martial prowess?

Generally that one, as that's what I've got mounted on my walls in the library. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Or do you just mean a bastard cutter, that would be wielded in Shadowrun with the Blades skill? Because there's plenty of fairly compact (relative to the bulk and awkward shape of a full-on katana) machetes, khukuris, tomahawks, etc, that are comparatively practical to carry around, even when trying to be sneaky. They tend to be designed for utility first and combat second, but they'll still get the job done if you need 'em to. Heck, just look at the good ol' entrenching tool, for that matter.

True, though the concealability modifiers on melee weapons is not-so-hot, from what I remember.

[X-Kalibur]

For a more rules implementing answer... the memory blade from Arsenal. I'd say that isn't terribly big and clumsy and still likely to kill some folk. Although at that point you could also just being using a monofilament whip. (What, my shoelace is monofilament, you don't see me trying to swing it around at people do you?)

[StealthSigma]

For a more rules implementing answer... the memory blade from Arsenal. I'd say that isn't terribly big and clumsy and still likely to kill some folk. Although at that point you could also just being using a monofilament whip. (What, my shoelace is monofilament, you don't see me trying to swing it around at people do you?)

I like it when a character defaults using a mono-filament whip and still have a pretty good chance of cutting his opponent.

[Doc Chase]

For a more rules implementing answer... the memory blade from Arsenal. I'd say that isn't terribly big and clumsy and still likely to kill some folk. Although at that point you could also just being using a monofilament whip. (What, my shoelace is monofilament, you don't see me trying to swing it around at people do you?)

Yes. Furthermore, I see me doing that. Next time I make a character, I think I'm taking a monowhip proficiency.

[X-Kalibur]

Yes. Furthermore, I see me doing that. Next time I make a character, I think I'm taking a monowhip proficiency.

Make sure you put it in a fingertip compartment too, that way you can easily justify grabbing the tip of your finger and using it like monofilament garrote as well. Sadly, my character that had one ended up using his sidearm more.

[Kruger]

Dude - what swords aren't big and clumsy to carry around while you're trying to be sneaky? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I used the katana because it's the iconic example. That, and because with its damage, it's going to be common for melee build characters.

But you're right, most melee weapons are still going to be cumbersome to carry, even ones smaller than a katana. Because, after all, they have to go somewhere. Load bearing is an element of the game quite often ignored. And while a modern hatchet might not weigh all that much, you still need somewhere to put it that will be easily accessible for you to ready. That takes up a lot of space for the other things you might want easily accessible like ammo, sidearms, electronics. You can fit a moderately sized knife in a lot of places. A machete is a little different. Even the best set up tactical vest runs out of convenient slots real quick, and there's nothing more frustrating than having to turn to someone and say "Hey. can you grab that for me?"

[yesferatu]

"Make sure you put it in a fingertip compartment too, that way you can easily justify grabbing the tip of your finger and using it like monofilament garrote as well."

Johnny Mnemonic called, he want's his scene back...

[X-Kalibur]

"Make sure you put it in a fingertip compartment too, that way you can easily justify grabbing the tip of your finger and using it like monofilament garrote as well."

Johnny Mnemonic called, he want's his scene back...

Ssshhhhhh, don't let them in on my secret. Next they'll figure out that my cyberdoc named Spider is really just Rollins...

[Neurosis]

I guess I'm mainly saying in your average run, why bother putting any points into melee when even using one gun at close range has a huge advantage?

Other than "it's neat".

From a purely crunch perspective? Depending on the gun, the melee weapon, and who's wielding them a melee weapon/attack can very plausibly hit harder. (Short of heavy gear (which you can only bring if subtlety is totally not a requirement) melee-focused adepts will always punch for more damage than any handgun shoots.)

And, also there are situational factors like unless your GM is very lenient or is not paying attention, there will ALWAYS be situations where you can't, shouldn't, or it would not be wise to pull out a gun. Guns will always shoot more (unless it's like a Ruger Super Warhawk or Eichiro Hatamoto or something) and can do it from farther away, but that isn't always worth the tradeoff for more damage and being available in situations where guns are not.

Also, I don't know why I didn't mention monowhips before. Monowhips are the best argument for melee ever, especially in 3E.

I dig the conversation going on with Critias about using melee weapons smaller than a Katana. My adept is also knife-based in addition to unarmed because, to paraphrase the character he's based on, "swords are for pussies".

[Kruger]

Not everybody wants to/can be an adept? What do they do?

And monowhips are: Asburdly illegal, hard to find, and not available to starting characters under traditional rules.

[Neurosis]

You can build a pretty sick chrome-based melee character too? I mean if you don't want magic OR cyberware, then yes, melee is probably not for you except as a 'last resort' type skill.

[Critias]

There's some pretty nasty cyberlimb options out there, along with spurs, bone lacing, etc. Mundanes, particularly if they go the metahuman route, can still get plenty nasty in close.

In my experience, most people that really have a "melee guy" sort of concept are already leaning towards Adept, but that doesn't have to be the case.

[StealthSigma]

Also, I don't know why I didn't mention monowhips before. Monowhips are the best argument for melee ever, especially in 3E.

Monowhips should be the melee weapon of choice for a firearms focused character, since strength doesn't factor in to damage at all! In fact, if it wasn't so counter archetype, I would have my firearms character use a monofilament whip (even while defaulting) because of his 9 Agility.

[Neurosis]

Agree with Critias. Another PC (who with my GMing frequency I may never play) was a sword-and-chrome-based Elf samurai and was pretty effective. I made him while first learning SR4 so I'm sure he's not optimal, but with some tweaking I think he could be very deadly indeed.

@StealthSigma:

Not sure if my memory is serving me correctly, but aren't there potentially very nasty consequences for using a Monowhip untrained?

[Kruger]

The problem is, once you've gone the crazy cyber close combat route, you're more often than not sacrificed the subtle route, heh.

That's why so many players opt for the adepts in the melee route. It bypasses all the difficult decisions in character creation.


I guess not that subtle factors into everyone's games.

[StealthSigma]

Agree with Critias.

@StealthSigma:

Not sure if my memory is serving me correctly, but aren't there potentially very nasty consequences for using a Monowhip untrained?

No. Just the -1 default penalty. There is nasty consequences for glitching/critically glitching a test with a monowhip.

[Doc Chase]

Agree with Critias. Another PC (who with my GMing frequency I may never play) was a sword-and-chrome-based Elf samurai and was pretty effective. I made him while first learning SR4 so I'm sure he's not optimal, but with some tweaking I think he could be very deadly indeed.

@StealthSigma:

Not sure if my memory is serving me correctly, but aren't there potentially very nasty consequences for using a Monowhip untrained?

Critical glitch a Monowhip roll, you lose a chunk of flesh. Or more than one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Kruger]

Anyone who wants to go swing a jump rope around for a bit will tell you why there's no way in hell any sane person would ever consider defaulting on a monowhip, heh.

[yesferatu]

Just to keep the Keanu Reeves theme going, I'll play the Devil's Advocate.
Melee is cool mainly because very few people are trained for it.

If you sneak up on a gun bunny, or they can't get to their gun for some reason, a melee trained character has a huge advantage.
Knock the gun out of their hand, then knock them silly.

"whoa"