What's the point of melee? Options

[Nifft]

Melee is how a physical adept with a weapon focus kicks the ass of a spirit.

It's how you hold your own in a brawl or bar fight.

It's also how you punch someone in the face, which may be more satisfying than the alternatives.

[StealthSigma]

Or unless...well...you don't have a gun.

To me one of the aspects of a Gunslinger Adept (or dedicated shooter Street Sam, or Merc, or whatever) is that overspecialization breeds weakness. Take 'em out of their element from time to time, and let the other characters shine. You can't always bring a gun with you. A gun won't always be the appropriate answer. If the group gets captured, it won't be a min/maxed pistoleer who overpowers the first guard or two. If the group has to win a bare-knuckle-boxing tournament to help out, or to establish, a contact, you won't send a Gunslinger into the cage.

Unfortunately, that's not the case with Shadowrun with how dice pools are built up.

For example. I have a firearms based character that's hyper specialized in sniper rifles. I'm talking around 20-21 dice in his pool without using Take Aim, yet he is still capable of taking character down with one or two melee attacks. It all has to do with how disgusting Agility is a stat. I have 9 Agility and no more than 2 in any non-firearms group weapon skill. Combined with a specialization I easily see 13 dice in my pool as a base. If I attack an unaware opponent, which I almost always do, you're looking at just adding 4 damage from net hits, or I could call shot for +4 damage and get 3 net hits and my little old Cougar Long Fineblade is suddenly dealing 12P damage that is now just being resisted by body and armor. I didn't even realize how stupid potent my melee attacks were when I created my character. Unarmed isn't as bad, considering I can't take a called shot (at least I don't think so) but I'm still dealing 7S damage with that. The only drawback is I never spent anything into dodge. I'm an opportunist, my defense is not being seen, but even if he does get seen and gets in a fist fight, it's not a guarantee that my character will lose, especially if he (which he usually does) have his knife on him.

[Combat Mage]

I see nothing forbidding you from doing a called shot with an unarmed attack. Also a troll with bone lacing/bone density and some martial arts (and some adept powers if you wanna get obscene) can get ridiculous amounts of unarmed base damage (which is one of the very sepcialized ways to build a really effective melee character.

But you're talking about sneaking up on an unaware opponent. That's normally a death sentence no matter what you're using for a weapon.

[Traul]

I'm talking around 20-21 dice in his pool without using Take Aim, yet he is still capable of taking character down with one or two melee attacks. It all has to do with how disgusting Agility is a stat.

Has anyone tried to link the melee skills to Strength instead? Bring back the fear of trolls!

[Combat Mage]

Would be nice housrule that improves trolls' melee dice pools by 4-5 on average. Also you could finally build a strong but clumsy bruiser who is still deadly in melee. I like it.

But all the strength 1 monowhip pixies would bitch like crazy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[itaipee]

Ranged is better then melee - but it should be even now ( in the boring present) , if you have a pistol or a gun you can kill a guy with one or two shots , with a two seconds - just like a round in shadowrun.

You have to be some kind of super ninja if you want to kill someone with bare end in a few seconds , therefore it makes sence that ranged is better then melee.

[Combat Mage]

If you're talking about close quarters combat a knife is every bit as deadly as a gun.

[Critias]

Guys, c'mon. When you bring real life into it, God kills kittens. It's not a road we want to go down.

[Combat Mage]

Guys, c'mon. When you bring real life into it, God kills kittens. It's not a road we want to go down.

true dat. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Psh, why would you *let* them get within knife range? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (Don't actually respond, we already had at least one whole thread about knife vs. gun.)

[Acme]

You know this thread is just going to end with someone trying to come up with a gun that shoots knives so you can have ultimate flexibility.

[StealthSigma]

But you're talking about sneaking up on an unaware opponent. That's normally a death sentence no matter what you're using for a weapon.

Why wouldn't you sneak up on an unaware opponent to attack them? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Huh?

[Blastula]

You know this thread is just going to end with someone trying to come up with a gun that shoots knives so you can have ultimate flexibility.

Or just duct taping a knife to the end of their assault rifle. Or taping an ares predator to that monosword you keep under the lined coat. Best of both worlds imho

[Yerameyahu]

I think a gun is already the best of both worlds. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sabs]

You know this thread is just going to end with someone trying to come up with a gun that shoots knives so you can have ultimate flexibility.

Doesn't that already exist?
I thought that was the whole point of a flechette gun.

[Acme]

Phsst.. leetle flechettes.
*Heavy Voice*

I want beeg gun that shoot.. Da! Dikoted Monoswords... Beeg sword that keell tiny man!

[Shinobi Killfist]

Or unless...well...you don't have a gun.

To me one of the aspects of a Gunslinger Adept (or dedicated shooter Street Sam, or Merc, or whatever) is that overspecialization breeds weakness. Take 'em out of their element from time to time, and let the other characters shine. You can't always bring a gun with you. A gun won't always be the appropriate answer. If the group gets captured, it won't be a min/maxed pistoleer who overpowers the first guard or two. If the group has to win a bare-knuckle-boxing tournament to help out, or to establish, a contact, you won't send a Gunslinger into the cage.

Any time a character overspecializes after "discovering" how much better anything is compared to anything else, it shouldn't take a GM a little bit of work to make the "anything else" come up, in-game, and let someone else shine a little.

That doesn't make melee combat good, it just means taking the skill is some times necessary.

I agree with Grinder. Please provide examples, Smokeskin, because I'm starting to believe that like Shinobi, the "melee sucks anyway" crowd is just really using that as an excuse for making a jab at 4e.

Whether you want to admit it or not melee on the whole took a big power hit in 4e, it took a smaller hit in 3e. Many want there games to go that way so they say, well guns trump melee that is how it should be, or don't bring a knife to a gun fight etc. 4e has improved unarmed combat quite a bit in some ways, but the base rules of unarmed combat make it hard to compete. Even assuming no full dodge, its reaction+skill that defends against it so you are put in a situation that unless you are hyper dedicated you will hit less often than guns and will have less net hits. Use a Katana on a Str 5 guy its DV 6 AP-1. There is no Ammo that kicks it up a notch so it is at roughly the same level as a heavy pistol with ex explosive ammo. Except the HP gets to shoot twice, gets range, and is dodge by a smaller die pool. Unless specialized to a high degree you will be lucky to get more than 1 net hit and since it is a complex action you are done right there. So 7 DV even against a body 3 guy in a long coat you aren't jacking him up too much 3-4 boxes. Sure he is hurt, but about 1/2 as hurt as from with a gun. This doesn't even add in things like automatics etc which quickly get things into the instant kill range.

Now if you specialize with melee combat are an adept or whatever you can fairly easily get your fists up to 10DV base with -3 AP, maybe even elemental effects if you want. Now you start looking like a heavy weapon in damage. Unfortunately it is hard to ride the in between area where you are good it is effective but people and cars don't explode on contact.

[SaintHax]

The problem is simple mechanics: the system thinks you actively avoid being struck in melee, so you get two stats to avoid damage; however, they think you stand still for bullets, so no one gets Reaction + Dodge. In addition, they allow one skill (Dodge) to apply to both Ranged and Melee, so everyone has it. If one combat is defended by twice the amount of dice than another, it will be inferior. It's a big screw.

Melee is how a physical adept with a weapon focus kicks the ass of a spirit.

It's not though. In addition to the melee rule break, you have a spirit rule break here: that all spirit skills are equal to Force of spirit. I have a 175 career karma, knife fighting, mystic adept with a weapon focus 3. At this level my buddy can summon a F9 spirit and not risk any drain-- it's just his pet level spirit. It can kick my tail.

It get's a DP of 18 (give or take, depending on the spirit) to defend, and I get 19 to attack (A 5, Blade 6, Imp Ability 3, spec +2, foci bonus 3). If I win, I can't kill it in one hit. Then it moves back and uses fear on me, which Spell Defense doesn't work again, and I defend with my Willpower of 9 (impressive amount) vs. it's 18 dice again. I run like a girl, and it kills any mundanes I'm with. BTW, before it gets to Fear, my buddy that can summon it, can cast a force 10 stunbolt to disrupt it.

You can pretend that Adepts using melee are cool in SR4, but I can tell you through many adventures that it's not the case.

[Smokeskin]

Well, the problem also is that characters in melee range, got to add their dodge skill TWICE.

so if you're in melee your dodge pool is:

agility(reaction)+dodge+melee(ordodge)

where as against a gun it's
agility(reaction)+dodge

and that's it.

your melee dodge pool is anywhere from 1-8 dice bigger. That's a huge difference.

I don't really agree with that. Ranged combat tends to get hit with a lot of really shitty modifiers, especially the -2 attacker/+4 defender dice for both being in good cover.

[CypherDragon]

The problem is simple mechanics: the system thinks you actively avoid being struck in melee, so you get two stats to avoid damage; however, they think you stand still for bullets, so no one gets Reaction + Dodge. In addition, they allow one skill (Dodge) to apply to both Ranged and Melee, so everyone has it. If one combat is defended by twice the amount of dice than another, it will be inferior. It's a big screw.

In a way though, that makes good sense. Even the fastest fists in the world won't travel faster than a bullet, plus their much larger. Larger target + moving slower = more opportunity to get out of the way. I don't think it's a matter of actively avoiding vs. standing still, it's just much easier to dodge a fist/knife/sword/etc than it is to dodge a bullet. The mechanics reflect that. Melee is powerful in the right situations; just like a T-bird with quad HMGs is powerful in the right situations. But you can't exactly sneak a T-bird past Lone Star. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Nifft]

It's not though. In addition to the melee rule break, you have a spirit rule break here: that all spirit skills are equal to Force of spirit. I have a 175 career karma, knife fighting, mystic adept with a weapon focus 3. At this level my buddy can summon a F9 spirit and not risk any drain-- it's just his pet level spirit. It can kick my tail.

It get's a DP of 18 (give or take, depending on the spirit) to defend, and I get 19 to attack (A 5, Blade 6, Imp Ability 3, spec +2, foci bonus 3). If I win, I can't kill it in one hit. Then it moves back and uses fear on me, which Spell Defense doesn't work again, and I defend with my Willpower of 9 (impressive amount) vs. it's 18 dice again. I run like a girl, and it kills any mundanes I'm with. BTW, before it gets to Fear, my buddy that can summon it, can cast a force 10 stunbolt to disrupt it.

You can pretend that Adepts using melee are cool in SR4, but I can tell you through many adventures that it's not the case.

I must admit to speaking based on theory.

Until I know better, I'll defer to your experience.

Thanks, -- N

[Smokeskin]

I agree with Grinder. Please provide examples, Smokeskin, because I'm starting to believe that like Shinobi, the "melee sucks anyway" crowd is just really using that as an excuse for making a jab at 4e.

Say Agi 7 unarmed 5, that's 12 dice hitting a mook with rea 3 dodge 3 = 6 dice, you get 2 hits. You're a strength 5 human, that leaves you at 5DV. Even if he has only body 3 impact 4, you're doing 2-3 boxes of damage. And that's for a complex action, from a very skilled softmaxed guy with some muscle toner - and he needs 4 or 5 actions to knock out a mook, and if the mook starts full dodging he's looking at 7-8 actions? That's ridicolous. But then you can add in muscle aug 2, bone density and 15BPs of MA and you're now doing 7DV more, and it is physical, so now you have an even chance of killing a mook per action.

The same guy with even a light pistol with ex-ex ammo gets to add smartlink dice and roll 14 dice at the same skill against rea 3 dice, throw in a few modifiers you're still looking at 4 hits, netting you not one put two 9DV -1AP attacks per pass, he gets 8 dice to resist and he is looking at a total of 12DV.

[DrZaius]

I think melee is neat. I've heard it described as a "BP sink", and I suppose that can be true, if you focus on it you can really make some combat monsters. The fights in my sig are examples of melee combat I mocked up, to demonstrate what you can do with various cyber and adept melee skills. A properly stated troll can kill just about anyone if his fist lands, and you can make 'em big enough that firearms range from a distraction to a minor inconvenience.


EDIT: An example:

[ Spoiler ]

“Brick”
Race: Troll
Body: 9 (13) (+1)
Agility: 4 (6) (+3)
Reaction: 4 (+2)
Strength: 9 (11) (+4)
Charisma: 2
Intuition: 2
Logic: 2
Willpower: 3 (+3)

Edge: 3
Initiative: 6 (+2)
Essence: 1.195 

Active Skills
Unarmed Combat (Martial Arts) : 6
Dodge (Melee Combat) : 4

Cyberware:
Dermal Plating (Rating 2)
Muscle Replacement (Rating 2)
Tooth Breakable Compartment (with 1 dose of kamikaze)

Bioware:
Bone Density 4
Platelet Factories
Damage Compensators 4
Adrenline Pump 2

Attack with Pump and kamikaze active:
Agility 6 (+2 from pump)( +1 from kamikaze) + unarmed combat 8 + Reach 1 = 18 dice
11P base damage
Attack without pump active
Agility 6 (+1 from kamikaze) + unarmed combat 8 + Reach 1 = 16 dice
10P base damage

Block with Pump and kamikaze active:
Reaction 4 (+2 from pump) + unarmed combat 8 + Reach 1 = 15 dice
Block without pump active
Reaction 4 + unarmed combat 8 + reach 1 = 13 dice

Full block with Pump and kamikaze active:
Reaction 4 (+2 from pump) + Unarmed 8 + dodge 6 + Reach 1 = 21 dice
Full block without pump active
Reaction 4 + Unarmed 8 + dodge 6 + Reach 1 = 19 dice

Damage resistance test:
9 body (+1 from kamikaze) + 4 bone density + 3 dermal armor = 17 dice

Standing after being knocked down with pump and kamikaze active:
9 Body + 3 willpower (+3 from pump and kamikaze) = 15 dice
Standing after being knocked down without pump active
9 body + 3 willpower + 1 kamikaze = 13 dice

Stun Damage track (with pump and kamikaze active): 11 (pain tolerance: immune)
Stun Damage track (with just kamikaze active): 10 (pain tolerance: 7)
Physical Damage track (with pump and kamikaze active): 15 (pain tolerance: 7)

[Smokeskin]

Yeah, you can make some combat monsters if you sink the BPs into it, but that's not really the point. Almost everything else, drop 16 BPs for 4 skill, and you're quite competent if it is linked to a boosted attribute. If you're an average sammy and does that with unarmed combat, you have a hard time tickling a single guard - and as much as I like unarmed combat, not just backup but also to control people and situations where drawing guns just send the wrong message, it isn't and shouldn't be your main combat trick.