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> Combat Adept Powers and Karma
codemonkey_uk
post Aug 13 2010, 10:12 AM
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Hi!

I have recently started playing, and GMing, Shadowrun, so please excuse me if this is a stupid question. We are using a SR4 Anniversary edition.

One of my players is playing a combat adept, based on the Gunslinger example, with a splash of Covert-Ops for flexibility.

We can't find any rules on how combat adepts can use karma to gain new adept powers.

I see he can buy another Magic attribute, which will gain him a new power, but beyond that it seems like he'd have to do "initiation" to gain further magic, and thus further powers, but initiation appears to be a very caster focused process.

What have I missed? Are combat adepts largely limited to the powers they pick at character creation time?

Checking forums / faqs seems to indicate there was a karma -> adept power upgrade path in SR3, but I can't find any rules for this in SR4.

Help!

Thanks in advance

Thad
@codemonkey_uk

This post has been edited by codemonkey_uk: Aug 13 2010, 10:12 AM
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Mäx
post Aug 13 2010, 10:40 AM
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QUOTE (codemonkey_uk @ Aug 13 2010, 12:12 PM) *
We can't find any rules on how combat adepts can use karma to gain new adept powers.

1.Adept get new power points when they raise their magic.
2.There's an optional rule in the catalyst printing(with the latest errata, page 31 or page 1 of the errata) of the street magic that allows adept to get a power point instead of a metamagic when they iniate.
3.There also an optional rule(also in street magic p 52) that allows character to buy new metamagic with 15 karma, could be combined with the number 2 to get additional power points that way. The limit on amount of metamagic is the characters magic+iniation grade

Hope that helps
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Rand
post Aug 13 2010, 10:55 AM
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Actually, I believe that those are two mutually exclusive rules, meaning you can't buy an extra power point for 15 karma (at least, not the way I read it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) ). The 15 karma rule is only for those mages/adepts/mystic adepts that are already initiated to be able to get more metamagics without having to buy another initiation grade.

I have been tossing around a house rule idea where the adepts can buy another power point for 20 karma, though. Or they can purchase individual adept powers with karma, for about 5 karma per .25 point (1 point for 20 karma). This will allow them to see a little increase here and there, instead of one big lump increase very rarely.
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Mäx
post Aug 13 2010, 11:02 AM
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QUOTE (Rand @ Aug 13 2010, 12:55 PM) *
Actually, I believe that those are two mutually exclusive rules, meaning you can't buy an extra power point for 15 karma (at least, not the way I read it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) ). The 15 karma rule is only for those mages/adepts/mystic adepts that are already initiated to be able to get more metamagics without having to buy another initiation grade.

That ofcource depends on the GM, i just offered it to him as an additional option. After all that number 2 basically adds an etra powerpoint to the list of available metamagics.
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codemonkey_uk
post Aug 13 2010, 11:07 AM
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Thank you very much for that quick reply, very helpful to know that the official rules to, in a round about way, give adept power points a 15 karma cost.

Before I let the player pump all his karma into buying adept powers I have to ask: Without this, what is the normal/expected character advancement path for physical adepts?

Should he be considering skill and attribute advancement before looking at pumping karma into power points? Should I only allow that direct conversion once his magic attribute is capped?

From what we've played so far, the adept powers seem to be very powerful, this player researched his character build a lot, as much like another new GM has recently posted, is dominating in combat, putting down multiple grunt NPCs in a single combat round.

I don't want to risk letting him get even further ahead of the power curve by being too flexible with karma->power points.

Thanks again for the advice!

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Mäx
post Aug 13 2010, 11:33 AM
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Well if he has a well build adept, then he cant get much better with additional power points, unless his think is high unarmed combat damage and even then the power ratings are capped at magic so he will most likely have to start branching around if spents lot of karma to power points.
Alternativly he start to spend his money to ware, countering th power los by buyng more power points.
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Rand
post Aug 13 2010, 12:40 PM
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The gun adept was my first SR4 character also, and it can be a pretty-tough one. But, instead of the "keeping him from getting too tough" scenario, think about it like this: he (or she) is a person living in a world, what skills & abilities should they have to get by in that world? In the case of the 6th World with all of it's technology, I personally require my players (no matter the archetype) to get some ranks in Computer and Data Search, and an Etiquette skill appropriate to their economic level. (I am sure there were others, I am just not able to think of hem right now...) By forcing them to spend points on things they should be able to do and not let them just sink every last BP/karma into thier "uber focus" you get a more well rounded character that isn't useless for about 75%, or more, of the time. That is, so long as you are running a game that doesn't have combat as 50% or more of the 'action.' Also, as was demonstrated by my most recent game session, knowledge skills and contacts are huge in SR, so you need to make sure they have a good smattering of both. Those cost BP/karma, also.

The RAW method of development goes like this: You can Initiate at any time, it just cost karma. The only way to get more power points to spend on adept powers is to inrease the characterr's Magic Attribute, which cannot go above 6 except through initiation. Then it's max equals 6 + Initiation Grade.
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Falconer
post Aug 14 2010, 12:43 AM
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Umm... those two rules were never written to be used together. And sincerely doubt they've ever seen any playtesting together.

Neither are usable for missions either and are given as suggestions if you find adepts need some help, not as core rules. (well crafted adepts are a power). Strictly as written they're also incompatible with each other.

The first says, "WHEN INITIATING" may substitute 1PP.
The second says pay 15 TO GAIN A METAMAGIC without initiating.

The second also was written before the karma changes, and is now grossly undercosted if you allow them to be combined. (1PP for the same price as buying Magic 3... in perpetuity without any cost scaling... grossly undercosted, look at it this way, 15 karma then for magic 5, is equivalent to 25 karma now for magic 5... so that's the cost change I'd suggest)
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Tanegar
post Aug 14 2010, 04:48 AM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Aug 13 2010, 08:43 PM) *
Umm... those two rules were never written to be used together. And sincerely doubt they've ever seen any playtesting together.

Neither are usable for missions either and are given as suggestions if you find adepts need some help, not as core rules. (well crafted adepts are a power). Strictly as written they're also incompatible with each other.

The first says, "WHEN INITIATING" may substitute 1PP.
The second says pay 15 TO GAIN A METAMAGIC without initiating.

The second also was written before the karma changes, and is now grossly undercosted if you allow them to be combined. (1PP for the same price as buying Magic 3... in perpetuity without any cost scaling... grossly undercosted, look at it this way, 15 karma then for magic 5, is equivalent to 25 karma now for magic 5... so that's the cost change I'd suggest)

QFT. Also, if for some inexplicable reason you do allow adepts to just buy power points for 15 karma a pop, there's no limiting mechanism. You can't initiate more times than your Magic rating will allow, but an adept can buy power points forever? Congratulations, you have broken Shadowrun.
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Mäx
post Aug 14 2010, 10:08 AM
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QUOTE (Tanegar @ Aug 14 2010, 07:48 AM) *
QFT. Also, if for some inexplicable reason you do allow adepts to just buy power points for 15 karma a pop, there's no limiting mechanism. You can't initiate more times than your Magic rating will allow, but an adept can buy power points forever? Congratulations, you have broken Shadowrun.

THe limit on that is magic+iniation grade.
Also i said nothink about balance, i just offered it as an option to GM who was looking for ways an adept could get Power Points.
Also Power ratings are limited to Magic, so adept doesn't really get more powerful with a big bunch of power points, just more rounded with bigger variaty of powers.

And what exactly does missions have to do with the OP:s home game?
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Kyrel
post Aug 14 2010, 10:22 AM
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I'm going to add a suggestion here.

How about running the optional 1pp for Adepts in stead of Metamagic when Initiating, but keeping the max level for powers equal to Magic only.
I.e. an Adept with Magic 6 would be able to Initiate 3 times, thus gaining 3 Power Points to use on Adept Powers, but without increasing his Magic rating, his max. rating for Powers will remain at the 6. (Or have I misunderstood or misremembered the optional rule, and my suggestion is in fact how it should be already?)
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Mäx
post Aug 14 2010, 10:24 AM
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QUOTE (Kyrel @ Aug 14 2010, 01:22 PM) *
I'm going to add a suggestion here.

How about running the optional 1pp for Adepts in stead of Metamagic when Initiating, but keeping the max level for powers equal to Magic only.
I.e. an Adept with Magic 6 would be able to Initiate 3 times, thus gaining 3 Power Points to use on Adept Powers, but without increasing his Magic rating, his max. rating for Powers will remain at the 6. (Or have I misunderstood or misremembered the optional rule, and my suggestion is in fact how it should be already?)

Yeap, that how it works allready, Power rating is limited to Magic, not Magic+Iniation/anythink.
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Falconer
post Aug 14 2010, 01:55 PM
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Even the 1PP for adepts when initiating is still a bit overpowered because it doesn't reflect the SR4a karma cost changes. (initiate grades go up by 10+ 3x initiate level... so once your mag reaches 2, it's cheaper to initiate... especially if you include the karma discounts available to initiation. Since SR4a increased karma awards and attribute costs all other karma buys are now proportionately cheaper as well).

If your adepts need a booster shot, yeah it's not too bad. Just be careful with using it and watch for abuse.

How to explain, right now it's MUCH cheaper to initiate than it is to buy up magic points. Magic rating is still a limiter though (in more ways than one), it's just a wierd situation above where if people take the most liberal interpretation of all those above, you end up with 2 severely discounted PP's for each actual 'magic' PP you buy.

You also run into wierdness where 1 point of background count, would remove a variable 1-3 PP worth of powers if they were truly maxed out. (you eventually end up following a pattern of buy up magic, buy 15k PP, initiate). Essence + Initiation caps magic, Magic caps initiation, Magic + initiation caps known 'metamagics'. So if he just raised magic... he'd lose 1PP... just raised one of the others he'd lose 2PP worth of goods... just raised all 3 but not enough to raise magic again... 3PP.

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Traul
post Aug 14 2010, 02:52 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Aug 14 2010, 12:24 PM) *
Yeap, that how it works allready, Power rating is limited to Magic, not Magic+Iniation/anythink.

In SR3, the maximal amount of active power points was capped by Magic, so the extra power only gave more choice. Maybe try that?
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Glyph
post Aug 14 2010, 06:25 PM
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Combining the two optional rules previously mentioned does not let an adept get a power point for 15 Karma. If you use both of those rules, an adept can get a power point instead of a metamagic when initiating, or buy a metamagic separately for 15 Karma.

That might look, at first glance, as if it lets the adept buy a power point for 15 Karma. After all, the adept initiated, spent 15 more karma, and winds up with an initiate grade, a metamagic, and a power point. But all the adept really did was get back the metamagic for an extra expenditure of Karma. He still needs to either initiate, or raise his Magic, if he wants the power point.
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Glyph
post Aug 14 2010, 06:35 PM
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QUOTE (Traul @ Aug 14 2010, 06:52 AM) *
In SR3, the maximal amount of active power points was capped by Magic, so the extra power only gave more choice. Maybe try that?

QUOTE (SR3 FAQ, italics to emphasize mine)
SR3 allows adepts to purchase additional power points at a cost of 20 Good Karma points each. Does this mean that an adept can have more power points than his Magic attribute? Or does the purchased power point increase the adept's Magic? Can purchased power points be lost due to Magic loss? What happens if the adept's Magic is reduced to 0, but he still has powers left?
Adepts who purchase power points with Karma do not get an extra Magic point with that power point. You only get that with initiation.
The power point for Karma rule was specifically included for players who do not use the advanced magic (initiation) rules. It is recommended that this rule be ignored if the initation rules in Magic in the Shadows are also being used. Any extra power points purchased with Karma do not count against the character's limit of (Magic attribute) number of power points.
When an adept loses Magic, he chooses which powers are lost; powers bought with Karma can be chosen instead of others. If an adept's Magic reaches 0, the adept loses all magical ability, period.

SR3 was a very different beast, though. Initiation and Magic gain were not two separate things - when you initiated, you gained a Magic point. Adepts who initiated gained a Magic point, a power point (from the increased Magic), and a metamagic, all at once.
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